David Novak 0:04 

Hey everybody, welcome to how leaders lead where every week you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world, I break down the key learnings so that by the end of the episode, you'll have something simple you can apply as you develop into a better leader. That's what this podcast is all about. Today's guest is Jessica Kim, co founder and CEO of ionic air. How great is this ionic air is a digital platform for family caregivers. And it connects them with every resource they could possibly need to care for their loved ones. Jessica founded Diana care because she herself was a caregiver and her mother's last days of life, she experienced for herself just how frustrating and exhausting and isolating caregiving can be. And she knew that there had to be a better way. Now, that's how great entrepreneurs think they truly care about their customers problems on a human level. And then they set out to solve those problems with excellence. So if you run a business yourself, if you dream about doing that someday, or if your company serves customers in any way, shape, or form, this conversation will inspire you on how to solve your customers problems at a human level. So here's my conversation with my good friend, and soon to be yours, Jessica Kim.

Jessica, there's no doubt that you are a serial entrepreneur. And you definitely are one of the most creative persons that that I know. And I can't wait for everyone to hear your entire story. But But first, can you tell us about your latest venture ionic air and how it came about?

Jessica Kim 1:48 

Yeah, absolutely. So thank you so much for having me on David. So I started ionic hair because I was thrust into being a caregiver. I did not intend to start a business. So my mom had pancreatic cancer for about seven and a half years. And, you know, my dad actually lovingly cared for her for many of those years. But eventually, you know, he's 10 years older, and he was working full time. And he was completely burnt out himself. And so I just came right in, and I was thrust into that role of being their caregiver, they moved in with me, I was working full time. And my kids at that time were 10, seven, and five. And I just had to navigate all of her medical care, I was performing all the nursing duties, it was pumping her stomach several times a day, and feeding her and bathing her. And, you know, eventually, you know, she passed away in my home in 2017. And it was the loneliest, hardest time in my life. And I remember in deep Greece, the thing that I felt most was frustration. I was so frustrated, I've been an entrepreneur, I've been in the tech space, I knew that technology was there, I knew that funding was there, I knew that we could reach people in their homes. And I was so frustrated that there were millions of caregivers, and yet it is so hidden, and it's completely underserved. And so, you know, my co founder, Steve Lee, and I partnered together, we dug into it, and we realized we need to solve this. And so that's kind of why we started ionic err,

David Novak 3:27 

you know, as I understand it, it's a huge market. Like there's 43 and a half million caregivers out there. And so how have you gone about innovating, to give these caregivers practical solutions you can actually use?

Jessica Kim 3:41 

Well, I think innovation always starts with learning and understanding. And so you are right, you know what, I always start with the problem. So one out of seven people in the US alone have a type of chronic condition where they become reliant on a caregiver. So we're talking about Alzheimer's, cancer, disability, stroke. And when we often think about these conditions, we tend to focus on the clinical sides of things. You know, what did the doctor say? What's the surgery? What's the medication, but over 90% of the actual time being cared for happens in the home, not in the hospital, and they're typically cared for by family caregivers who are unsupported, unpaid and untrained. And so David, it's actually 54 million family caregivers now. And the most recent BlueCross BlueShield study said that 61% of Americans consider themselves a caregiver of some shape or form. And so, you know, this results in major societal and institutional issues and the things on the business side that we're really focusing on are the 33 billion of productivity loss for employers employees, because most caregivers are working at the same time, and then the 50 billion healthcare costs that are often avoidable. All. And so the question is, after understanding all of that, we said, Well, what do we do? What do family caregivers need help with most. And what they need help with most are the everyday tasks. It's the administrative work, it's the daily care, it's the bathing, it's the feeding, it's, you know, all the financial management, but then they also need systemic support. And that's why we're really working with employers and health plans. Because until we really change the system, we can't really serve family caregivers. And we may think of all of these things as non clinical aspects of care that may not be as big of a deal, but it's actually the social determinants of health, that impact 80% 80% of someone's health outcome. And so that is why the key role of the caregiver is so important. But then our aha moment. So again, I always start with, you know, what do we know, and what are we learning, but our aha moment was that there are 1000s of these resources and services that already exist to serve kids and caregivers. Yet they are completely segregated, it's really hard to find they're hidden. They're hidden in buckets, like health care institutions, employer benefits, you know, even your own social circles and local resources. And so the end user does not know where to begin, and they are thrust into it into a very emotional experience. And so that's where we come in.

David Novak 6:27 

Tell me about Ionic, here's the name. What's the meaning behind that? Yes. So

Jessica Kim 6:31 

I on a care, what we really understood was at the core of caregiving, it's a very isolating experience. We don't really talk about it in our culture. We don't know how to support caregivers in the same way that we have learned to support parents. And so the I A N A of ionic hair stands for I am not alone. And so it is the core principle of how we do everything is that we say how do we build technology solutions and bring real communities together? So caregiver, do not do this alone. And so that's, that's kind of the essence of everything we do.

David Novak 7:12 

I was thinking about your business. And it seems to be that probably one of the biggest barriers to usage is just caregivers. And most people just have a hard time asking for help. Exactly. Are you finding that to be the case?

Jessica Kim 7:24 

Yes. And actually, that's the perfect segue into what we actually do. And it's the first layer of support, because that's where people begin. And so, you know, we are this one platform that integrates all the different layers of support. And the first one is your friends and family, your personal social circles. The number one piece of advice that social workers will tell you is to ask your friends and family for help. But it is very awkward. It's socially not accepted in our culture. And so what we did is we first said, Let's unlock that. And we created this platform where you invite your friends and family and neighbors, who say yes, I want to help you. How many times have we been on both sides of Oh, my gosh, David, let me know what I can do to help, right? And nothing happens because things are so vague. So once you invite them onto the team, we walk them through how to get meals, rides, respite care, pet care, childcare, house errands, grocery shopping, and you fill out this very quick kinds of requests that gets blasted out to your team. And then you the team members see everything on one screen, they click one button that says I got this. And all the details go on both people's calendar with that one click. And so what we realized was that it's very awkward to say, Hey, David, what are you doing tonight? Do you want to do you want to make me dinner, it's like, so awkward, I would never ask you that. But I can create this buffer using technology to blast it out. And then you as a supporter, you look, you say, You know what, I can actually do that tonight. And I click I got this. And you know, that's how we've been able to, you know, deliver 1000s of meals and rides and all this daily help. So that's kind of like the firt. That's the first layer that we started. But we also realized that that's not enough help for especially caregiving situations that lasts for four plus years. And so we work with employers where we integrate all of their benefits into the platform, because they're available to you and often free to you. And then we put zip code based local resources, almost like a Yelp, if you will, onto our platform. We have our own expert content, and then you can even connect with a human caregiving coach to really process everything that you've been going through. And so again, it's all the different layers that people need throughout the different phases of the journey. All in one app.

David Novak 9:41 

You have such a big idea and you have such a huge market. You launch ionic air COVID hits, you know, how did that impact your business and how do you scramble?

Jessica Kim 9:54 

Yeah, you know, COVID is so devastating on so many levels and Um, and you know, I think, you know, for caregivers, we always say it's not a new thing. Caregivers have been doing this and being isolated in the home for for many, many years. But it made it worse, the stress and mental health is completely through the roof. But what it has done, actually has accelerated this awareness on a global level that there are caregivers. So for the longest time, people in caregiving have been trying to be on their soapbox saying, Do you know that there are 43 point 5 million caregivers of which now it's 54 million caregivers, and most people say I don't see it what I don't, that must not be a big deal. They're home. But because of the pandemic, with COVID-19, the world has, is now awake to all the care that happens in the home to our elderly, to our vulnerable populations who have chronic conditions. Now, they are the highlight of what everyone's talking about to protect them. And so we are leveraging this opportunity. And this momentum of awareness to say Yes, finally, let's build this tangible support for caregivers that have always deserve this type of support. So it actually has accelerated our, our business tremendously the need, we are trying to keep up with all the caregivers that are on our platform. We locked in our first major enterprise deal nine months ahead of schedule, and we all know those contracts can take up to 12 to 18 months, and we were able to go through all of it because they saw the need that was so great.

David Novak 11:37 

Now what do you recommend to caregivers that are impacted by COVID, just you know, one or two big things that you recommend?

Jessica Kim 11:44 

I think the the first major thing is know that you're not alone, even though you are you feel so isolated, and you feel that all the typical resources are now restricted even more. With the beauty of technology, you can still get a lot of support. So we always say care without contact. So we have these tremendous stories were a caregiver is on our app, in a very kind of intense situation. They had their personal social circle team grow up to 120 people, all local and remote, and they were able to get 540 meals delivered all from friends and family, they were able to get gift cards sent. And so they felt this outpouring of just all this support, despite physically being so socially distanced. And so that's the first thing is that you're not alone. And technology can help kind of bring people together at this time. And, you know, our care managers can help you navigate through all the different restrictions that you're facing.

David Novak 12:47 

You know, how much does your passion for loving others and being compassionate? How much does that drive you in this situation? Because, you know, you're also a hard driving business person I've yet to you we're gonna talk about but you got an incredible track record of building businesses. So, you know, what is this special emotive thing that you have? How does that how does that really make you tick?

Jessica Kim 13:12 

It is everything. And I mean, everything. It is the core, it is our fuel, it is our center. You know, my co founder, Steve Lee, and I always say that there are two major truths to Aiyana care. One, we are highly empathetic, we truly know and care to the point where we say we love our caregivers. And because that dedication is so strong. That is what makes us decide what feature to launch that is what makes us decide what's priority is how do we serve, you know, our caregivers that we have so much love for. And we care for each other as a team. And I, we always say you know, you're not working for me, I'm not hiring you. I may be your manager, but you're not working for me. We are all working for this mission that we feel so convicted by and we need to call each other out. We need to, you know, wink our sweet to high five, we need to keep each other sharp because it's the mission we're going after. And so empathy and love is the core of everything that we do. But then the second thing is we work really, really hard. We strive for excellence. The reason why we strive for excellence is because if we're not excellent, we let our caregivers down or our partners down or our customers down. And so it's this hand in hand that you can be very hard mission driven. But because that is your core, that's why you work so hard, right? It's not this hustle culture to have this badge and to say, Oh yeah, I don't get a lot of sleep. I'm such a hardcore person in it. No crush Red Bull over my head. No, the reason why I work so hard is because people are relying on us and we care so much about them and that, and that's what's going to drive us. So it's those two things that drive us

David Novak 15:12 

who are your passion is is so contagious, and I'm sure it's inspiring to everybody that works with you, you know, and shifting a little bit back more to the hard stuff of your business, you know, what have you learned? And and how are you evolving your free app? You got an incredible app? I mean, I checked it out. But you know, you've this had to be a major learning process. What's the what's the single biggest thing you've learned about that?

Jessica Kim 15:35 

So the first, the major thing we learned about that is, we knew that that wasn't gonna be our business model, the free app, but we knew, because it were so centered on loving our caregiver, we had to start there. And we wanted our insights and everything to be say, to start with, how do we serve you. And so that free app has evolved, where we said, actually, the friends and family is not enough. You need other resources, you need your benefits, you need your local resources, you may even need a coach. And so it was through our end user insight and collaboration with our caregivers, that we've built all these other layers out, which made sense then to work with employers. So our business model is employers and health plans pay us to integrate all of their benefits into our platform. So then the utilization rates go higher, so they can see the impact of these benefits that they're paying for, with the people that they are also serving. And so what we love about it is that family caregivers have enough on their plate, they're already doing $470 billion worth of care for our society really being unpaid. So we didn't want to charge them. But our, you know, we have partners like employers and health plans that have an incentive to take care of their employees and members. And so that's our business model. So we've learned so much, but at the root of it was starting with 10 caregivers.

David Novak 16:59 

So now you you mentioned a little earlier that you got your first customers well, before you thought Yeah, yeah. Why? Why do you think that happened? What did you do as a leader? To make up I have to say,

Jessica Kim 17:11 

you know, it is public, like our first customer is anthem insurance. And, you know, they're the second largest insurance company, they've been tremendous partners, I think they're a thought leader in in caregiving and social determinants of health. So we did a study together. So they believed in us enough to say, Okay, let's see, you know, if if this is if people like it, if people will use it, if it really achieved the ROI that we were expecting. And so we were able to see from that study, that we were able to reduce by 83%, people taking any time off from work, because they had this support system, we were able to prove that 30% reduction of stress levels of these caregivers, especially during COVID. And then higher satisfaction of and loyalty, it's for the employer. And so we were able to prove those kinds of metrics. And then so that combined with everything that was happening with the pandemic, with the innovative kind of approach of Anthem, allowed this to accelerate, and they've been tremendous partners. So yeah, we were expecting to get our platform built out with all the other layers and start selling this quarter, to other large employers. But we we launched two weeks ago, live, we have hundreds of people on the platform already. So we're just a we're so excited that we have this privilege to serve them. So your

David Novak 18:35 

business is already taking off. And you're also I read where you're already winning national awards for integrated digital solutions. And what advice can you give other leaders on how to build digital capability? Because you, you've got this down?

Jessica Kim 18:52 

Well, well, I think we're always still learning. But I used to be intimidated. When we said, Okay, what does this look like digitally? And what I realized, and this may be my anthropological roots, but ultimately, technology and digital, these are channels, these are tools just like anything else. What you really have to focus on is the human problem, the human experience, the human perspective, the human behavior, change the desires, the feelings, especially if you think about caregiving. It's not just logistical. There's a lot of family dynamics, and this is life and death that many times and until you need to focus on those things. And then when you really understand those core principles, core convictions, the desires, then you look at all your tools and say how do we get them from here to here so they can flourish? And digital is a major tool right now because it makes everything accessible and scalable. All, now we can serve all levels of employees, not just the C suite. And so technology is a great tool. But don't, I would say my biggest thing is don't get caught up in it has to be digital, just for digital sake or just we need to be relevant. We are still human flesh skin, like blood, you know, emotions, like lose yourself in that and view digital as a tool.

David Novak 20:23 

It's great advice. And, and you've mentioned your your co founders, Steve Lee, you have a really powerful relationship with him. Who does what in in the business? And how do you to stay on the same page, because it's hard to be co anything?

Jessica Kim 20:39 

Yes. He is amazing. So Steven Lee, and he knows I sing his praises. We are so complimentary. As co founders, we're 5050 co founders. And he always says, If he was here, he would say, Look at my face, this is a tech and operational face. And he calls himself a savvy geek or something like that. I think he's pretty cool. But he's an MIT grad tech genius, like, but we together are very values aligned. And so we bring different views to the big picture decisions and vision. And we always do have healthy debates and get to a better place together. And then when it's time to execute, we have our own areas where he does, you know, the will the product will do together, because a lot of it is core insight on the human behavior and, you know, the UX, you know, have a lot of input and the words that we choose. But then the way it goes from, you know, our sketches to, you know, make sure it works with all that data, data and legs, that's all him. And then he's really just brilliant about, you know, he's ran a company where it's went from two people in his garage to IPO. And so he's really gone through all these big org decisions as well in terms of hiring hundreds of people, everything from bonus structure to kind of hire, like whatever your leadership structure looks like. And so we're very collaborative on those big things. But definitely we we focus on, you know, our own pillars, I do a lot of the marketing, the sales, that consumer insights. And that's kind of really how we split it up.

David Novak 22:19 

Do you have any advice, Jessica, for founders on how to go about hiring it at different stages of your business?

Jessica Kim 22:26 

Yes. So you know, in the beginning, you need generalists. I think people who know how to both think, big picture, but actually has to do the detailed execution. But by definition of a startup, you have huge plans to change the world, right? Change culture, impact the world, but you have a very small team and very small budget. And so because of that, you need big thinkers, but you need doers. And so that's, that's, that's what how we saw the first. That's how you should see I believe, like the first kind of stage of your of your business. And then as you grow, and once you've kind of realized the core plumbing of how your business works, and you've proven out some of those things, then you can start bringing in more kind of managers. But even through I would say, all those stages are a little bit kind of mushy now. But I wouldn't say even through Series A, everyone has to be people that execute, there's no room for just managers alone. Everyone has to manage themselves, manage other people, and then actually get the job done. And then I think as you scale to like A, B, C, that's when it just makes sense to kind of have more of a Managing Senior Leadership. But for startups, you definitely have to be a doer. You know, Jessica,

David Novak 23:45 

I suppose that people will be writing books on how to be a remote leader. What challenges have you faced and new ideas that you've surfaced to lead your work from home team?

Jessica Kim 23:59 

That is, I would love to read that book, David, because I think we're all trying to learn about that now. And I have been reading whatever I can on it, I would say, Well, I start with like, what's the biggest difference? I think you miss out on the casual conversations, the two minute conversation before a meeting starts. The joke that happens when you're kind of catch each other in the hallway. And I think that's really hard to replicate on video calls alone, because you that starts everyone just sitting there and you feel like you just have to go at it. And startups are ready, so stressful and hardworking enough that what we had to do is kind of build in some buffer time, especially with our core team to kind of talk about random things or to laugh or to say, what is that statue behind you? You know? And that takes intentionality because it's so easy to say, okay, what are we getting done? But, you know, it's kind of bringing in some of that, that human side of it, you know, we just hired three people that I've never seen in person. And it's very weird. But I think the benefit of this is I do think, due to this pandemic work is going to look different forever. And so the good thing is, I think we can start building that intentionality and that relationship building in this new world from the start. And I think the other key learning is like, you know, not everybody is the same. So take time to talk to each person individually and say, How can I best support you during this time, some people actually would rather get the job done and not have chit chat, because they'd rather spend time with their family and the lien debt balance. So I think it's just about both as a cohesive culture, how, you know, what are our principles? And then individually, how do I serve each team member?

David Novak 25:52 

What do you think the balance will be between working in the office versus remote as things evolve? And we get out of this mess?

Jessica Kim 26:00 

Yeah, I really strongly believe it's going to be like a, you know, three days in the office two days, not. That's what we're going to implement? Or it's just, I mean, it depends on your stage, it depends on the type of company, you know, because some companies, I mean, some roles have to be really in person. But I think in general, I think what I do love about what we're all experiencing on a global level, is that you can still get work done without and integrate your family life in your personal life. And I what I do love is the fact that my kids can come in here at any point, and a year ago, I would be mortified. And now I'd probably put them on my lap and give them a kiss and say, meet Mr. Novak. And I think, you know, I have a really amazing, like, fun, inspiring story, actually, that I always it was around April, this was like, right, you know, COVID, and this pandemic is very fresh around then. So everyone was trying to still be very buttoned up on Zoom and everything. And I had a major call with a fortune 500 company, like a big one. You probably know that first. And David, I won't say any names. And I was really nervous. I was like, Okay, here I am, this is my chance I can sell in here. And then I was with the head buyer. And then my daughter, who is by the way, 13, okay, she's not three, she walks in, in a green crayon costume, okay, with the hat and everything. And she starts going like this on my Zoom. And I'm like, I'm okay. No. And I started sweating. And it was a little awkward, because now it's a little bit more normalized, but then it was still pretty formal. And so it's embarrassing, kind of like, go out, go out. And then I lost my train of thought. And then I kind of stumbled and got back into it. And, you know, we got through the meeting. And at the end, I was like, done this to me. This was such a big meeting, and you're not three years old. And I will never forget, I got an email around 545 that night. And it was from that head buyer. And what she said was, Jessica, that meeting and your crayon was the best part of my day. Thank you so much for sharing your crayon with me. And she basically made it made me put me at ease, because she probably knew that I was freaking out and said, You know what, this is the world we're living in. I get it, don't worry about it. And I just think that's the type of leadership that we need to have. And so yeah, so I anyway, that's kind of

David Novak 28:45 

humanity, right? Yeah. manatee on on Zoom. And, you know, to have a little kid that can you know, do the be a crayon says something about you, too. You know, I know you're an avid learner. And I know you met with Indra Nooyi, the former chairman of PepsiCo, when I told you that she was passionate about caregiving. Yeah, what did you learn by comparing notes with her?

Jessica Kim 29:11 

Well, one, hearing her talk about caregiving on such a global level with her exposure and experience was so validating. It was it made it so real and I think having someone in her position to be able to be a spokesperson for this people will listen. And so I think we'll the so that was the thing that just struck us most was she was so knowledgeable. So articulate, she is brilliant. And her heart is is gold. And she is really kind of utilizing her position, her platform, her voice, she is going to make a difference and, and she sees it and she led, you know, 1000s of people and she's a global leader. So I think so that's the That's the first thing is that it's, it is a real thing. And it gave us even more of a boost to say this is real, and she loved our approach. And then I think with her, she really did inspire us that it is a systemic problem. So we always knew. And typically we think of caregiving because we all come to it, typically through a personal experience. So we know what happened. personally, individually, we see what it did to our family, or friends, family. And then you kind of start hearing stories. But again, because we're in this phase in our society and culture where we don't often talk about it, we don't even have terms yet for it, it can often get lost. And she really kind of emphasized that our systems have to change, our institutions have to change, our policies have to change, she's talking at the government level, and hearing her speak like that made open our eyes to say you are exactly right. And it really had an impact early on how we kind of started building the fabric of ionic care. And that's kind of how we're approaching it as well,

David Novak 31:07 

it gave you a more conviction that you're heading in the right direction, which I think all of us need when we're we're trying to break new ground.

You know, Jessica, it's been so great hearing about ionic air and how you're building the business. And, you know, I want to talk a little bit about you now and tell us about your your upbringing.

Jessica Kim 31:32 

Okay, I was born and raised in New Jersey and proud of it. I'm the youngest of three kids with an awesome big brother and big sister. And my parents were just incredible people. My dad is a psychiatrist. And so as you can imagine, I grew up getting so many lectures. Like, if I did anything wrong, I wouldn't get grounded or things taken away. But he would just sit me down and spend hours walking around me. And I hated at that point. But I look back at those lectures. And as an adult, I really appreciate everything that he instilled in me. He was just a huge fan of just shaping growth, mindset, and self confidence. And then my mom was just the most supportive person, she would do whatever it takes to kind of make anything happen that I was interested in. And so I just really credit my parents for establishing this foundation of believing in myself, and just going after what I wanted to do.

David Novak 32:30 

Jessica, do you have an early childhood story that that you like to tell? That will tell us a lot about you?

Jessica Kim 32:37 

Well, it's interesting. This is also a story around what I was just saying, and how my parents just instilled this self confidence, which I really appreciated. So in middle school, I came back and I said, I'm going to run for, you know, student office, and my dad was saying, great, you know, what are you going to do? And I said, I'm going to run for Secretary. And he's like, great, you know, that's wonderful. But can you tell me the difference between what a secretary does versus the president? And you know, this is middle school and high school? And so at that time, I said, Well, no, I don't really know the difference. And he said, then why don't you go for President? And I said, Well, I just thought that that's kind of, you know, what you do? It's my first time. Maybe it's because I'm a girl. And he stopped me right there. And he said, it doesn't matter whether you're a girl or boy, Asian color of skin, tall, short, etc. If you have a vision for what you want to do, you go for it. Don't let anything hold you back. And so I remember saying, Okay, let me do it. And so I ran this whole campaign, I said, Say Yes to Jess, for President. And I made all these fortune cookies and put all the messages in there. And I ended up winning that whole campaign and I ran every year, my high school years, I was president every single year of high school. And it was just something very early on for me that I take with me, even now, as a female founder and entrepreneur and leader, is that belief that if you have a vision, it doesn't matter where you come from, or who you are, what you look like, or what people's perceptions are of you. You go for it, because it's the vision that's going to drive you and so I'm just so that was a very pivotal moment for me.

David Novak 34:22 

I love that say yes to Jess, that's great advice for your bother. Now you went on to to brown, which is a great school and you majored in anthropology. How did that shape your business approach?

Jessica Kim 34:34 

Oh, my gosh, I am so grateful that I did that. And when I went to school, I was like, Okay, this is what I really love doing. I have no idea what job this is going to turn into. But ever since I was 10, when people would say what do you want to be when you grow up? I said, I don't know. But I want to study people. And I've always been so intrigued by our culture, our background, our upbringing, our situational experiences, and how all of those things literally shaped the way we see the world. And so when I got to college anthropology was just that it was digging into history and cultures and all the different ways communities live and interacting, communicate. And so I, you know, the way I see that now, is that that is really what business is all about. You know, what we're ultimately doing as business creators, entrepreneurs leaders, is that we're trying to create a solution to make someone's life better and to have let them flourish. And how can you do that if you don't know what that person is about, and how they're shaped and how they view the world. So it absolutely is the core of the way we approach marketing, the way we approach even the solution we're creating, the way I lead, it's so rooted in the person. And so anthropology is really the core of how we operate today.

David Novak 36:00 

That's incredible, you know, you seem to really focus on the problems that impact people, and that really drives your ideation process and your lightbulb moments is, is that a correct conclusion?

Jessica Kim 36:11 

Yes, I, it's interesting, I spend the bulk of the time focusing on the problem and the existing behavior. And I think, you know, David, like you were saying, I think that's kind of my anthropology background. Because people always say, how do you get a business started? What do you do? And so often, we jumped to execution, but how are you supposed to kind of create a solution if you don't really understand what you're solving. And so even with this, we went and read 14th century death manuals, we read all these journals and research from doctors, like we really dug into the problem that exists today and how it existed over the last decades to understand how we can move it forward in a in a practical way.

David Novak 36:55 

Well, I love that that focus, you know, finding those problems have been solved them, you know, at the age of 19. You started Jessica's wonders now that's a baked goods company, and you did it right out of your college dorm room. Tell us a story about how that happened.

Jessica Kim 37:09 

So yeah, I did not intend to start a business. I was an anthropology major. I walked into this pizzeria my sophomore summer. And this pizzeria was called Fellini's and Providence and I saw this plate of banana bread. And I said, Wait a second, who made this I can do it so much better. And it was Saran wrapped and had a toothpick with a little you know, sign that said $1.69. So I knew it wasn't a professional company. And so he said, why you think you could do better? And I said, Absolutely. So it's like, Alright, bring it in. So I brought in my special banana bread that I named after my friend Kelly, who was obsessed with bananas. And I brought it in, and it sold out that day. And he was like, Wait, hold on. I'm a pizzeria. This is summer time, I don't sell out of baked goods, bring in another one. So I kept bringing it in and kept selling out. And after a while I said, we I want to make sure people know that I need this. So I made signs out of construction paper and markers. And I called it Jessica's wonders and the slogan was so good. It'll make you wonder. And it just after a while, I was just like, Wait, hold on, you need to pay me for this is how far away I was from businesses that I wasn't even charging him for all these bread, banana breads that he was selling out of. But long story short, I ended up you know, continuing to sell to 13 Different hotspots around campus. I was literally baking out of my little tiny efficiency of it in my dorm room. And then Brown had its very first business plan competition. And so I did an independent study with Professor Hazel teen, which was actually the same professor that helped the Nantucket Nectars. Guys, Tom Scott and Tom first start their business. And so he said, Okay, we could do an independent study, but you have to enter this business plan. I said, Okay, fine. And so as I did the business plan, you know, I loved the process of thinking about all the different aspects that you had to do to create a business. And there were 77 teams, and I won the competition. And so after winning that, I ended up selling more. And then one of the mentors and alum kind of took me under his wing. And I ended up raising $1 million dollars, my senior year of college. And so I had braces at that time. I was 20 years old, I looked like I was 13. And we quickly grew the business to over 4 million in revenue in just two years getting distribution along the entire east coast. So it was an incredible experience. And that kind of is what introduced me to what entrepreneurship was.

David Novak 39:51 

Wow, that's that's a very quick start. You know, you mentioned you know, 19 You look young you had the braces. How did you how did you get people to take you Serious as a business person back then,

Jessica Kim 40:02 

yeah, I had to learn that the hard way, I realized that I have a lot of energy and passion, and everyone talks about it. And I think that's so true. Like I saw a vision that this could be like the Ben and Jerry's of baked goods. And so I presented it that way. I always had people taste the product, so they could enjoy it. But I realized that I had to back it up with a lot of kind of financial planning or the plans of how I'm going to actually execute it. Because you can have passion, but especially being so young, and having a bubbly personality like I, I have, I realized I had to give people assurance that I was also very planned out. And I knew what how I was going to actually do this. And so the combination of those two things made people trust in me, and I'm so grateful that they gave me this chance. And all these angel investors that invested a million dollars in me when I was so young, I really credit them for giving me this opportunity.

David Novak 40:56 

And so what happened to the company? Yeah, so

Jessica Kim 40:59 

after a couple of years of running it, and we were all in the Stop and Shop supermarkets, we just, I just had this opportunity to have a sale of it. And it was, it was a good sale, and I was able to then go to business school afterwards. And that's really when I kind of really processed everything that happened. So as you can imagine, it was such a whirlwind. There was a point where through that experience being so young, I slept at the office, I didn't have anything else other than to I was just pouring everything into the business. And so I didn't have any kind of life work balance. And so I learned a lot of really core life lessons through just because wonders, and business school really helped me process strategically what happened, what we did, right, what we could have done better. And so I really appreciate that time that it had there to process everything with my classmates,

David Novak 41:53 

you know, speaking and processing that, you know, what would be the top three bits of advice you'd give aspiring entrepreneurs based on that experience?

Jessica Kim 42:01 

Yeah, I mean, the biggest thing is, you don't need to have a background or all this experience in what you have a vision for. So often, we get roadblocks by saying, Well, I don't have a background in baking, like I wasn't a professional baker, all I did was have a vision for this product, and this brand and kind of what we could create. And what I did was just look for someone that just knew a bit better than me. And so that's the other thing, we often think we need this famous expert, or this famous person or the best mentor in the world in order for me to move forward. But you just need to find someone that's just, you know, knows a bit more. And so the person that really helped me learn how to bake on a commercial scale, was an owner of a local bagel store around campus, I walked in, and I just said, Can you help me kind of figure out how to get this one loaf recipe to, you know, 50 pounds. And he said, Okay, well come tomorrow morning at 4am. Because that's when I started. And so I was there in front of his door at 3:45am with two copies in hand, and I said, I'm ready to go. And so that eagerness is what made him feel like I'll invest in you and help and mentor you to teach you everything. So I think that's the thing, it's just, you just need to go forward and just find one person that knows just a little bit more than you. I think the other thing is make sure that you find people who believe in your vision just as much as you do. And so, you know, with our investors, you know, you have to find people that like not are only looking for a financial return and just seeing it as a financial investment. But how are you going to do it? And that how is really important to get aligned with?

David Novak 43:48 

Great, you know, I was really surprised just to learn that your your next career step was brand management at Kraft Foods, you know, you go for being this entrepreneur into a big company like Kraft, that had to be quite an adjustment.

Jessica Kim 44:02 

It was you know, but you know, I feel like I was I was desiring it. You know, because I started my first company. And it was really my first professional job. Starting my own thing all on my own. I kind of wanted to learn from the big guys, because the thing that I hated hearing was people would say, Oh, that's great that you have this baked goods company, but you don't know how the real world works. I'm like, huh, but let me figure out how the real world works. And so I wanted to go to Kraft Foods to get that apples to apples comparison of what it was like to work at a startup food business out of a dorm room to a fortune 500. And it was incredible to see kind of the similarities and the differences and what's done well in a big company and what's done better in a small company. But I want to stay in the same industry. So I didn't have the different interests to kind of skew that point of view. And so I loved kind of learning how to run a bigger team. Bigger Finance, running a bigger p&l and having interdisciplinary teams. And so I learned so much. But after three years, the thing that I missed was the kind of Startup Grind, kind of like being really close to the consumer, and being part of that initial vision and creation process. And so that's when I kind of started my next company. Yeah. And

David Novak 45:22 

so you went on to found Baba co Tolosa, the genesis of this company, it's really interesting.

Jessica Kim 45:29 

Yeah. So, you know, I was on maternity leave from Kraft actually. And I had my first child, I now have three kids. And when Kayla was an infant, my eyes were opened up to the world of parenting. And this was right when mommy blogging was coming out. And all the brands were just showing parenting as this calm and beautiful thing. And I realized, Hey, that's not reality. And so I saw this opportunity to create a brand that was very personality driven, and to create products that really focused on the quality time we spend with our kids. And so the way I always thought it is, you know, we can buy a lot of things for our kids. But the most important thing that we can give to our kids is our time, and attention. But it's hard to do that consistently when we're juggling everything, and we're tired. And so we created these activity boxes, where it just came to your house every month, and you just open up, and all the materials and instructions are there for you to just enjoy and spend good time with your kids.

David Novak 46:28 

Oh, that's great. Now I understand you learn how to put your initial Baba co product together by learning how to sew on YouTube.

Jessica Kim 46:35 

Yes. That's right, because we kept before we came out with activity boxes, our first product was this infant carseat cover to protect the baby from the cold and the wind. And again, I didn't know how to sew, the last time I sewed was in sixth grade home economics class. So what I did was I just kind of watched a ton of YouTube videos, I got material. And when I had to do a certain pattern that was too difficult to even learn how to do through YouTube. I stapled it, I duct taped it, I just did whatever I needed to do to get to a certain Frodo type. So then I could take it over to the local seamstress at a dry cleaners, you know, the local dry cleaners and I just said to her, I said, can you make this look better than what it is right now, obviously, I don't want duct tape on it. And so she did. And same thing, she kind of took me under her wing and start teaching me what patterns were and how you're really so certain patterns. And so that's how we got our first products out the door. And then we ended up selling 1000s of those through byebye, baby and and Amazon and we just grew the business. But it really started with YouTube videos and finding that one person that just knows a little bit more than you.

David Novak 47:57 

So you really help families spend quality time together for the products that you created. And you started out by selling the big box retailers, as I understand it, and then you went to a subscription model, yes. What drove that decision?

Jessica Kim 48:11 

i It's kind of again, if we are creating solutions for our consumers, and I just dug in to what they were doing, what they were looking at what their needs were. And I realized, especially with the rise of social media at that time, that there was this opportunity to directly communicate and have this real relationship with the moms and dads and families that we were serving. And so when we were in big box retailers, we know we would work with the great buyers, but we had no personal connection or awareness or understanding of what each individual consumer was doing. And so that shift was really just out of the intent of getting closer to the consumer and building our direct relationship with them.

David Novak 48:56 

You ended up selling Bob ako. And but you stayed on as president for a couple of years. What triggered your decision to leave?

Jessica Kim 49:03 

Oh, gosh, so much. But I guess I would say, you know, there was just an opportunity. When you think about what you want to do with the business, you often don't know how it's all going to play out and what the exit strategy will be. And we're just so focused on serving our community the best. But I just started realizing that fundamentally the physical box subscription directly to consumers, it was not the best way that we can really serve them and that it would be better as part of a bigger company. And so we had books in every single box. And you know, we had barefoot books in there. And it was by far the best boxes that people loved. This is a global children's publishing company. They have incredible kind of global stories that all with the mission of opening their minds and opening their worlds. And so I got to know the founder. She's a female founder in Cambridge, so close to me And we just started having coffees and dinners together. And the more we talked about our vision, we realized that together, we can make it even stronger and better. And so it was such an organic and natural kind of progression. And so we they acquired Bob Rocco and I stayed on as president for a little over two and a half years, it was just an incredible experience. And we had 1000s of sales, direct sales, people selling our products. And so I loved leading kind of the 1000s of people, and just really giving them a sense of purpose of what they were doing and what they were sharing with people.

David Novak 50:37 

desk, I had a lot of fun getting ready for this, and I went to your Twitter account. And I read a number of your tweets. And I want to I want to ask you a few questions about that. I learned that you really liked the idea of reverse pitches, where rather than entrepreneurs pitching their ideas, industry experts give you the key problem for their creators to solve. Can you talk a little about that?

Jessica Kim 50:59 

Yes. Oh, my gosh, I am a big believer of this. The more common thing is for at conferences to have entrepreneurs and they pitch their idea, right. But I think what's more impactful are all these executives and leaders and industry experts who are living and breathing these problems day after day, and they're trying to solve it, but they're solving in a certain way. But they have all these other ideas of how other solutions can make their impact stronger. And so I there, these reverse pitches is basically the total opposite where up there, you have this panel, and you have these industry experts, and they share what they're seeing and the problems that they're seeing, and why it's a problem and why we need to be concerned. But they have no idea how to solve it, but they really understand what's wrong. And so we as entrepreneurs in the audience, we can hear all of that insight. And the way that we were built is to say, oh, my gosh, well, why don't we take this part from a and this part from B, and collaborate and kind of create a solution together? But I think that's so effective. I think we should have more and more of these reverse pitches versus only hearing the idea.

David Novak 52:12 

Yeah, there's your problem solving orientation. Again, you know, I love this tweet, you said, you can take the entrepreneur out of the startup hustle, but you can't take the startup hustle out of the entrepreneur. What do you mean by that?

Jessica Kim 52:25 

Oh, my gosh, I think it's just what I realized, after being at the very beginning of a startup, and then even being at an organization like Kraft Foods, or being on the venture side, I realized that, like entrepreneurs are built with this internal drive, grit, hustle, and actually, that's what we enjoy. Like, and even if we're in this, a bigger organization that has a lot more structure, and probably a lot more Christian to risk, what we crave is to kind of keep pushing and pushing the boundaries forward, and pushing the team forward to make it even better. And so I think there's benefits and being in both types of organizations. But I realized once your startup entrepreneur, you can't take that hustle out of them.

David Novak 53:16 

You know, here's another interesting tweet that you had, you said, just spoke on this panel about women and leadership, half the audience was male. That's how we make an impact. Yeah, explain that.

Jessica Kim 53:28 

I think women in leadership and moving forward any kind of minority group, if you will, is that we need to have a conversation with every single person involved. Because it's so often when we have women leadership discussions, especially the type where you want to move something forward, we're only speaking to each other other women. And that's not how we're going to actually change our culture or how things are done. We need to integrate in the real world there. There are men and women and we have to have this conversation, to figure out solutions to work together on and to hear each other's input because so much of the time is that we are making assumptions and don't We don't really know the other side. And so having conversations together is actually really important. So I feel like that we apply that to kind of any other topic,

David Novak 54:22 

just because this had so much fun. And now I want to have a little bit more with you with a lightning round of q&a. So here we go. Are you ready for this?

Jessica Kim 54:31 

Yes, I'm ready. All right.

David Novak 54:32 

What three words best describe you.

Jessica Kim 54:34 

Okay, energetic, creative, and heartfelt.

David Novak 54:40 

If you could be one person for a day besides yourself, who would it be and why?

Jessica Kim 54:46 

I would love to be my mom when I was my when she was my age.

David Novak 54:52 

Why is that? I

Jessica Kim 54:55 

think it would just give me so much understanding because I know I I knew her when She was an adult. And I just, I think it would say so much about it would show me so much about the difference of the equality of women, the whole culture. She was an immigrant that came from Korea. So it would just be incredible to tie what I know intellectually but into a human soul that I cared and love so deeply, and it would just probably be life changing to be her for one day.

David Novak 55:28 

What's your biggest pet peeve?

Jessica Kim 55:34 

Lack of progress.

David Novak 55:37 

Surprise, there's something about you that few people would know.

Jessica Kim 55:44 

I actually was going to be a violist at one point in my life. I went to the pre college Juilliard School I had one of those violin I don't know if you know about the violin Hickey plays so much that you have this big Hickey looking like mark on your neck. And I loved music so much. And I those were my first jobs that would play gigs. And, and I remember, you know, practicing three hours a day, and just loving it. I love chamber music. And so I don't think people would have ever guessed that I would want to have been a musician.

David Novak 56:20 

Do you have another hidden talent?

Jessica Kim 56:24 

Let's see. So another hidden talent is? Well, I used to be an aerobics instructor, but but just by saying aerobics really dates me, I think because who says anymore? So I totally was a 90s kind of roped aerobics with a headband and everything. But I would teach classes. I did it for like, six, seven years. And I still enjoy it. So

David Novak 56:51 

that's great. What's your favorite idea that you've had so far?

Jessica Kim 56:55 

I mean, I feel like Ionic air is life's work. Ayanna care. I mean, this is the culmination I feel like of decades. And but

David Novak 57:07 

but all of this started with this bakery that that? Oh, yeah, go. I remember that. You know, so what's your favorite baked good?

Jessica Kim 57:14 

Okay, so definitely my favorite baked good is molten chocolate cake. I am a chocolate girl. And when it oozes out, or there's nothing better?

David Novak 57:22 

Well, Jessica, it's been just fantastic catching up with you. I mean, you are an amazing leader, and an inspiring leader. And thank you so much for for sharing your wisdom and what you're learning about leadership and your journey with others. So thank you very much. Thank you, David.

Jessica Kim 57:39 

It's such an honor to be here. I respect you so much. And so thank you for, you know, using your voice to teach us all about leadership, it impacts so many of us.

David Novak 57:59 

Make no mistake, Jessica is a hard driving super sharp business person. But in every venture, and in every role, she is always attuned to the problem her customer is facing. She feels it at a human level. And that empathy motivates her to go out and do excellent work. It's such a winning approach, and it's one we can all definitely learn from. So let me offer you a bit of coaching. It's so easy as leaders to let layers pile up between us and the people we actually serve at the end of the day. This week is a part of your weekly personal development plan. I want you to brainstorm three ways you can connect with customers really try to understand and empathize with the problems they're experiencing. I just know that this can lead to the motivation you need to solve their problems on a human level. So do you want to know how leaders lead? Well, we learned today is the great leaders solve problems on a human level. Thanks again for tuning in to another episode of how leaders lead where every Thursday you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world. I make it a point to give you something simple on each episode that you can apply to your business so that you will become the best leader you can be