David Novak 0:04 

Welcome to How leaders lead where every week you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world, I break down the key learning so that by the end of the episode, you'll have something simple you can apply as you develop into a better leader. That's what this podcast is all about. Today's guest is Johnnie Taylor, President CEO of Sherm, the Society of Human Resource Management, which is the Association for over 300,000 Human Resource Officers in 165. Countries. I always say the formula for success in any business is to get your people capability, right. That's how you're going to satisfy more customers. That's how you're going to make more money. And more importantly, that's how you can make a bigger difference in the world. That's why I'm really excited for you to hear from Johnny, because he has figured out a huge piece of the puzzle when it comes to getting your people, right. And here's something a lot of us overlook empathy, not sympathy, but empathy, the ability to see a situation from someone else's perspective, and really respond with compassion. He says empathy isn't just a mushy feeling, or moral idea. It's a business skill, something we actively need to be working toward in our organizations and developing in our leaders. And fortunately, he has a lot of practical advice for how we can do just that. So let's get right to it. Here's my conversation with my new friend and send it to yours, Johnny Taylor.

Johnny, thanks so much for taking the time to join me in this conversation.

Johnny Taylor 1:42 

Oh, thank you so much, David. And I listen I shared with you it's, it's a big deal to be able to spend time with you because all of the CEOs as of late, frankly, have jumped on the people bandwagon. But you've been doing this for a very long time. This is not new to you. And you know, a long time ago when people were talking about financial capital, financial capital, you were talking about human capital. So thank you for being ahead of your time and being a frontiersman on this work.

David Novak 2:10 

Well, thank you very much, Johnny, you know, I know your organization pretty well. I've spoken to a couple of your big conventions. They're big. I mean, I spoke to one in Orlando yet close to 15,000 people. They're the biggest group I ever talked about. And I I taught everybody the young chair. It's the only time Johnny that. I've I've trended on Twitter. You know, it sounds kind of cool. But can you tell us about the purpose of your organization Sherm and and anything else that you think will put it in the proper context?

Johnny Taylor 2:41 

Yes. So Sherman, let me describe what it is for people who, who just need sort of an elevator pitch, right? We represent HR professionals across the globe. And what does that mean, if you were a lawyer, you'd be a member of the American Bar Association, if you were a physician, you'd be a member of the American Medical Association. So is the professional association for people who do what we do, which is human resources. It includes HR practitioners, that includes lawyers, because you know, there are a lot of lawyers who focus on people issues. It includes all sorts of benefits people and talent acquisition people, etc. But anything related to people is what we do, we are the go to organization for that, however, and most recently, and about three or four years ago, because of what you've been preaching for decades now, the idea that people are at the center of almost everything, especially when it comes to industry, we've broadened our remit a little bit, so that even employees now come to us to say, What should I expect from my employer? What is the right way for me to ask for this or that? So it's more than just representing HR professionals. We're representing work and everything that has to do with work?

David Novak 3:51 

Well, you've really broaden that definition. And I want to want to want to get into that a little bit more later. But first of all, the reason why I'm so excited about doing this podcast is I just read your excellent new book it has it's chock full of insights. It's called reset, A Leaders Guide to work in an age of upheaval. What do you hope to accomplish with the book Johnny?

Johnny Taylor 4:13 

Yes. So I, I hope that again, not just HR practitioners or just CEOs, but that broadly, we all read the book and say, Okay, what's my reset moment? Why is that so important? David, I think you'd agree. And anyone listening to this would agree that we all thought back in March of 2020, it feels like centuries ago now. Right? But we thought this was a pause. We thought, you know, 1421 days, 30 days, the entire country, and indeed the globe shuts down, and then we will be past this COVID-19 thing. None of us, you know, as time marched on three months, six months, nine months now, 15 months later, thought that we'd be here still, frankly in the middle of The pandemic in many ways. And so as opposed to a pause, this period of time to reflect, rethink reset was very different than what any of us expected. I'm hoping that what the book does is it says, Here's a framework for for taking this rethinking how you're going to operate in work going forward, either as an employee, or an employer, a leader or a follower, whatever. That's the point is for it to give some thoughts, as you said, some real thoughts about how can how will I be really different coming out of the pandemic?

David Novak 5:36 

You know, you're obviously a leader who really walks the walks the talk, and I want to get into how you lead and how you're resetting Sherm with a real live example of how to how to really perform in this crazy time. But first, let me let me take you back a little bit. Tell us about your upbringing.

Johnny Taylor 5:53 

Modest, that's the best way to describe it. Right. And, and I just had lunch with a colleague the other day and describe why I think that makes me what I am, because I can relate relate to everyone I've been in the best of worlds. This was the Charles Dickens story, the best of times the worst of times. So I've lived it all. I was born in Fort Lauderdale, one of three children to my parents, they ultimately were divorced, so raised by single moms went off to college, because it was clear to me that education was going to be the great equalizer at the University of Miami, or you for anyone watching out there. And then went on, left Florida, where I was raised and did my undergraduate work to law school, went to Iowa of all places. So if I have any Midwesterners and Nick, thank you, you gave me an amazing foundation, and then spent my life on the corporate side, even though I'm at Sherm now, which is a.org, and a nonprofit, I spent most of my life in major corporations, Viacom, Paramount Pictures, Blockbuster Entertainment, yes, there once was a blockbuster. And as I mentioned, Dave, something that you would know I was in the food services business. In fact, I was general counsel for a company out of the UK call the Compass Group, the world's largest food services company. And so I was General Counsel there. I've had throughout my career opportunities as the chief lawyer, Chief HR officer, and now CEO.

David Novak 7:13 

So Johnny, you were at Blockbuster, which was totally disrupted by Netflix. What did you learn from that experience that sticks with you today?

Johnny Taylor 7:23 

That if you don't change, you will die. And it's just that simple. In fact, I talk about blockbuster a lot. You remember it for anyone who's too young, maybe the millennials, and particularly Generation Z, we were everywhere. I mean, there was a blockbuster store opening every 20 seconds, we used to brag on the planet, there was not a corner you went to and everyone made it a blockbuster night. And it just became a part of life, right. And then almost overnight, I'm talking five to seven years, it went from Wall Street's darling. And you pure ubiquity, from a brand standpoint, to nowhere to bankrupt to, like non existent. And I saw that because we refused the whole idea of innovation within a business, the idea of not listening to the next generation of customer internally or externally. It caught us up. And so you know, for people who think that companies can't go away, they do. And I lived through it.

David Novak 8:19 

Yeah, absolutely. You know, and, you know, that's a lesson that well, well worth remembering by everybody. And then you became CEO of Sherman 2017. Yes. What did you do to get up to speed on on the people and the challenges that you had at hand?

Johnny Taylor 8:36 

Well, fortunately, I'd spent almost all of my career really focused on people related issues, either as an HR person and as a lawyer. And then I spent a period of time in my life working in colleges, right in the college space, higher ed space, because if you think about it, those are the very people who will ultimately become employees. So I had a really good understanding of how that the talent machine from K through 12, to college and ultimately into the workforce, what I had to spend my time doing and the earliest part of my tenure here at Sherm was really rethinking our purpose. You know, a friend of mine who is now deceased, a name that you you'd likely know David Stern, was the commissioner of the NBA, and had spent a lot of time with me and I remembered when I joined, Sherm, he called me up Cole Cole, right. And he said, So Taylor, I see you've joined this big organization. It's called Sherm, and he said, you know, tell me about it. And I rattled off at that time, we had 285,000 members, and 150 countries, and I rounded off those sorts of stats, and he said something that will forever stick with me. He said, Well, that's great. So you got a big club of HR people. And there was this pause. I was like, what? And he said, What does that mean to me as a business leader? Nothing. He said the fact that you've got 200 85,000 HR people doesn't necessarily mean anything to me, which you've got to do is tell me why Sherm should matter to me. And with that, I came back to him. He said, it'll never forget, he ended. He said, How many people do you impact every day? So I don't know, 25,000 people he said wrong. That's not your number. Your number is the multiplier effect. How many people do those people impact every day in a workplace somewhere on the globe? That's your number. So I went back to my teams. And I said, What are the numbers? How many people when you take our members and we go to each one of them and say, How many people do you oversee every day in your HR practice within your organization? We have 5000 employees, we have 300 employees, we have 20 employees do the math and come back, he came back, a research team said 115 million people go to work every day, an organization where there's a Sherm person working, and I said, Wow, now that is our impact. So that really is what I early on, I had to get up to speed on why should share matter to anyone other than HR people. And it was when I realized that people spend most of their time, the time that they're awake at work. And so we have this huge opportunity to literally transform people's lives by providing a livelihood to them. And you can do all sorts of things with that sort of setting. And that's what we're doing right now. And it's what I learned early on is this job is more than growing my membership base by three or 4% a year, it's about impacting people's lives.

David Novak 11:30 

You know, God, what was the culture you inherited? And how are you shaping it to be even more powerful today?

Johnny Taylor 11:36 

Yeah. So internally and externally. So let me start with externally, the external meeting our members, the culture was one of HR people talking to HR people about HR stuff. And, and so imagine me coming in trying to say, but guys, that's great. There's a little bit of an echo chamber going on, because we're talking to each other about the same stuff. How are we going to get people outside of our world to validate us to say that what we do matters, and to show talk about impact. So that's a culture that was very, very much insular. That was number one, externally, internally, it was one where we had a lot of pride. But it was stayed, kind of, you know, 1% a year growth, nothing that you would accept in the food business or in any business that you'd run. And, you know, people would come and they would go, and we'd accept it a little kind of sleepy. And then all of a sudden, here I come, Mr. disruptive, and I pride myself on that, and it comes with and I hope we get to talk about it. It's uncomfortable. It's uncomfortable for people who are going through the change with me, and frankly, leading through this is the most uncomfortable thing you've ever done. Because as much as people say they want change, they really don't. As much as people say they want transparency. They really don't, you know, as is that line from the movie, you really can't handle transparency. Well, that's true. And so this process was painful. The first two, two and a half years of it was absolutely painful externally and internally. But I'm pleased to say in about three, year three, we started to see the breakthrough.

David Novak 13:15 

Well, maybe a lot of that not maybe I'm sure a lot of that. Is this the importance that you seem to be put on having a challenge culture? Yes. What do you specifically mean by that? And what are you doing at Sherm to make that happen, so it comes alive in your organization?

Johnny Taylor 13:32 

Right. Yeah. So So I, my, my communications people hated when I called it the challenge culture, because they were like, that's, that just doesn't feel right. I said, but that's what it is, like, let's use real words that people can relate to what do we mean by that? When your people naturally are pleasers, largely right, and they typically respect hierarchy. So if Johnny says this is the direction that we're going in, by virtue of his position, he must be right. And or Johnny's chiefs are you know, they're the leaders, they say it, what we found is there was some really good ideas coming up from the bottom, you know, there's the grass top, though it was that rooftop green and toe tree top strategy. And there's a grassroots strategy. And what we found is there were some great ideas, there were mistakes that we were making as an entity that that our people at the bottom of the organization knew and would have helped us prevent that we could have avoided those mistakes if they thought they could challenge things that we said. So this idea of a challenge culture was very much about giving people creating a culture where people actually believed that we wanted them to challenge our ideas respectfully, with civil, civility, all of those good things, but at the end of the day, you've got to give people the freedom, the safety to actually challenge ideas. And that's what that's hard work because I gotta make I got to tell my executive team, this is the way we're going to operate. It's okay for a person no matter where they are within these ranks to come in and say, I'm not so sure that's a good idea. And then you've got to take it and not just hear them, but you've actually got to embrace it. And then let them start to see that some of the things, the positions that we held, were willing to change if people and then once you do that, over time you create a culture where people believe challenge is not negative, it's positive, because ultimately, the entire organization is better for it.

David Novak 15:26 

You know, I never really liked the word culture, Johnny, it sounds too much like a germ debate. I define it as work environment and the behaviors that will get the best results. What's your definition of culture?

Johnny Taylor 15:39 

Yeah, so I too, I've struggled with it. Because growing up as lawyer culture felt soft. I was like, Well, what is that? Right? It's, but I tell you, I have come up with those sort of working definition is how things get done around an organization. It's unique to every organization, I've found that there is no perfect culture, there are no good cultures of AGIS like families, right? There are illegal, immoral, unethical cultures, I got that part. Because putting that aside, culture is how things really get done. Some of the rules are written, some are unwritten. And it's incredibly important that you in recruiting people, that you describe your culture and describe the specific behaviors to your point, that that should manifest what culture feels like. But if you ask me a short version of it's how things get done. I mean, that's how they

David Novak 16:30 

work around here. You know, I really believe in purposeful recognition, where you recognize the behaviors that you know, get great results. What are those behaviors at Sherm that you really think are critical,

Johnny Taylor 16:41 

right? Innovation. And part very close to that people from a behavioral standpoint who are willing to take risk and innovate, which means some things will fail, right? You think about Silicon Valley, you think about the private equity world, you got to you know, just a lot of Prince Charmings to find that one right, your toes rather. Right. So that's the way the process works. So from a behavioral perspective prospective, what we do is we like to see people who are willing to do things, some of which will fail. And then we've got to celebrate that failure as much as we do the success, as long as it's a well into executed failure, right? I don't want people who are failing, just because they didn't take time to think through this stuff, right? responsibly, and, you know, use our resources in a responsible manner. But you've got to celebrate failure. That's a behavior. And so when I looked for people, one of the things we asked an interview process is tell me when you failed at something, there is nothing that stops an interview faster with me when someone says, I don't think I've ever failed at anything. And I said, Well, it means you're not going to this won't be the culture for you. Because you'll come in, and you'll constantly be the person who blocks innovation, because you're afraid of failing, you've never had it, you don't want to have it. And so you're not going to do it, which is going to ultimately slow down the progress that we're trying to make an organization. That's one thing, the other behavior that I'm really pushing. And more and more now is we can have rumors and backbiting and meetings after meetings, a lack of transparency with each other, I have found that organizations are struggling a lot because of the tensions internally. Employees. I just read something the other day a specific example that I make this point. So I guess the woman is the Chief Marketing Officer at Netflix, and a group of her employees on a slack channel decided that they were going to complain about everything wrong with her leadership in the organization, right. Some of which may have been true, some of which may have been false, I don't know. But interestingly, Netflix from a behavioral standpoint, fired those people. And they said, Let me tell you what we do here. If you have something to say about someone, you say it to them, you don't talk behind their backs, we we will not operate that way. That behavior has to be built into design, and you have to be intentional and enforce within an organization. Therefore you don't have the organization competing within itself. You have people we're all just now you spend more time you know, worried about what people are saying about you that's destructive and counterproductive. So I love those sorts of things. And I've found that that has harmed a lot of organizations, this pettiness, this incivility, this rumor mill, like you've got to put an end to it. If you can't tell I feel very passionate about it. Because I have learned that organizations lose a lot of their energy with infighting.

David Novak 19:29 

Absolutely. And you know, you talked about COVID a little bit earlier, how are you using the crisis of COVID-19 and now delta to do organizational good at Sherm, what's your what's your specific reset?

Johnny Taylor 19:44 

Right, my specific reset has everything to do with Well, I have to say two, one is flexibility, workplace flexibility, not to be confused with work from home, because I think that's a problem. We've sort of decided that this is all about work from home Most people don't want to 100% work from home, they like interacting with other adults, right? They like the interactions of the human experience. But the idea that everyone doesn't have to work in the office nine to five, five days a week, that it could be three to three days and two days out, it could be for one, it can be whatever, that people that we have to bring the true concept of work flexibility to life, that was a big reset moment. For me, I'm a lawyer, I'm sort of conservative on these things. And this is the way work gets done. And now we have been forced during this process this reset moment to say, Hmm, does it have to be done that way? David, I can tell you, if you had told me that my EA could work remotely effectively my executive assistant that is effectively for me, I would have said there's no way there's just no way I need that person. And I know you probably can relate as a chief executive, you're like, I need this person right here with me. It was amazing. How, you know, two days a week, she could be quite effective for me working remotely. And that was a true reset moment for me in the biggest way.

David Novak 21:12 

You know, every company has had to work virtually What have you learned at Sherm about how to keep remote workers truly engaged and productive? It's a big challenge.

Johnny Taylor 21:23 

Yeah, it's, and that is my takeaway, it is incredibly hard. I'm not even sure that it's possible. So that might be a little provocative for you. There is there's a reason why we have the adage, out of sight out of mind. And the reality is, if you have an employee who's fully remote, and you have another employee who's next door to you every day and you're running into them in the coffee room, the water cooler, whatever, you go out to lunch, you are building relationships with that person that cannot be replicated with all of the HR interventions in the world. Sure, the person who's on I can bring them in, and I can make sure they show up on the Zoom screen, and we can have touch spot, you know, touch hands, and we can do all of that stuff. But trying to replicate fully replicate the in person human dynamic is not realistic, which is why I think those companies that have gone too far you can work from wherever you want, you never have to come into the office, we don't have to see you know, you I think over time, they're going to see that there are major disadvantages to that now, can you make it better? Should there be true it? Can you take two different work experiences working remote and working in the office and try to make them more like, reduce the similarities? Sure. But one thing that I and that's hard, that's gonna be really hard, I just did a meeting and I'm sure you've seen it, I'm on board, right. And you had a meeting, the people who are joining the board meeting remotely, do not have the same experiences that people who are there, and we are all equals, right? This is not a hierarchy or anything. We're all independent board members, but the people in the room have a much different, and I would argue more impactful interaction than people who are remote. So can you do it periodically? Sure. But every day if there's if you're going to compare remote to in person, you're going to struggle over the long term.

David Novak 23:12 

What do you think are the biggest workplace innovations that have have occurred because of COVID?

Johnny Taylor 23:17 

Right? For us, and I'm gonna name to one, we have now found a way to recruit people on board people, like train people fully remotely. And I would have, I would have told you two years ago that that just doesn't work. We actually now I want you to think about this conventional thinking was, you can't fire people remotely, right? You bring them in, we do all of that now, remotely. And we've changed the norm, I can hire you fire you I can promote you demote you, I can celebrate you all of that remotely. To me, that is the biggest change. And in particular, the learning and development side of it, that now asynchronously, people can upskill and rescale at any time remotely and quite cost effectively now than any than something we've ever seen people are learning now, in their living rooms at three o'clock in the morning, or at three o'clock in the afternoon is just amazing. So that entire way that we manage and develop and find talent has been transformed during this reset,

David Novak 24:29 

you know, human resource, Johnny, as you well know. It's it's it's a can be a really maligned function in a lot of organizations. You know, why does HR have such a bad reputation across so many organizations?

Johnny Taylor 24:42 

Well, so HR in its early stages, we called it personnel was responsible for one administrative function. So we paid you we didn't decide what you got paid. We just made sure we paid you so it was a very kind of administrative clerical function. So that's not something that typically gets issue any real positive, and the only time you go see HR is when the pay didn't come on time, right? Or if there was a mistake in your paycheck or whatever. So you start with a very administrative function, that that didn't help with branding. But the other side of it is so much as we evolved from personnel to more human resources. In as late as the 90s was very much a compliance function. It was the no department they use were the people you went to who said you either weren't doing well, or here the policies that that you had to follow. This stopped you from doing those things that human beings like to do. So you became the no department as such, between saying you're only administrative clerical anyway. And whenever I do come to you, it's about no or some rule. When you put those two things together for four or five decades, in the workplace since 1938, or so when the Fair Labor Standards Act was first put in place, then that's a reputation that has been well earned. And it's no necessarily not necessarily a fault of HR. But that's that's the answer.

David Novak 26:06 

Well, what do you think then makes a an excellent human resource leaders today?

Johnny Taylor 26:11 

Right. So obviously, it did, it depends upon the level. So what will make a great CHR o might be very different than, you know, an entry level employee relations person, but at the end of the day, it's the department that tries to get you to yes, this mindset that our role is to be there to enable your people success, workplace success, as opposed to constantly saying no, and we have to be. So that's the number one thing that we have to do is the whole mindset that the paradigm shift necessary from, I'm here to tell you why you can't do something to I'm going to tell you how we can get what you want done. I preach this to HR professionals, there will be times when the answer's no. But it should be the absolute last sort of line of defense, like I've done everything I can to work with you, Madam people, manager, to help you figure out how to get what you want achieved when we change our mindset. And compliance is always an issue. But even then, explaining to people listen, I'm trying to get you there. But there's this thing called Title Seven that says we can't do this. But let me tell you, I have some creative ways. Think about what we do with our tax advisors. You sit down, you know, any tax person can tell you what the IRS tax code says. But then a very creative one sits down and says, Let me tell you, this is how I'm going to help you there are ways to get what you want to achieve. That to achieve what you want. You're trying to get Have you want to say it differently. But the point is, that's what we've got to get to is yes, there's a compliance world in which we sit. There are all sorts of labor and employment laws and more and more coming every day. But the question is, how can I get you madam HR person or Mr. HR person? How can you help me as an HR expert, get what I want? In this world full of rules?

David Novak 28:04 

I love that notion of getting getting people to Yes, you know, it's very powerful. And, you know, I noticed that you also in addition to having your other functional leaders, you've you created a Chief Knowledge Officer, and sure, yes, you know, tell us about that, that that's that's building no house important.

Johnny Taylor 28:22 

No big time. So I'm naturally a person trained as a lawyer who believes we need to have facts, evidence to support our positions. One of the challenges for the HR professionals, we oftentimes relied on our instinct. And what we know is the subjectivity of instinct is all over the place. Right. So one of the things that Sharm has actually been doing for a while, but I've doubled down on during my tenure as a CEO is to find evidence to support the positions that we take. And so we really, we dumped a ton of money into building out a team of PhDs IO psychologists, statisticians, researchers, so that when we say this is the way something should be we actually have evidence to support it. Case in point, everyone's jumping on early on this happened April, May of 2020. Right after, you know, we were locked at home, you know, they were employers jumping out saying the way of the world, the future is going to be remote work. And we said, pause and they all said, Oh, because we see major efficiency and employees are more productive and everything and we said, But now let's do the research. Let's ensure that from a knowledge standpoint, that we have also measured the downsides. We know that one in four employees by June of last year were reporting burnout, isolation, depression, on account of not having human interaction. So maybe the answer isn't everyone works remotely forever. Sure. The CFOs are telling you that you can save a lot of money because we shut these buildings down. I'm not running air conditioning. I'm not buying coffee. I don't have security guards, but there are some other costs associated with it. I wanted out We're Sherm and our leadership team, specifically our knowledge department, to say, we're going to have data and evidence to support both sides of the argument, decide what you want to do in your shop, but you should have the data, you should have information to make well informed decisions. And that was, that's part of the role of a Society for Human Resource Management

David Novak 30:19 

makes so much sense, you know, and I always talk to Johnny about the fact that the change is never over. And you say, make constant reset your friend, you know, yeah, how do you go about doing that?

Johnny Taylor 30:32 

In your head. So I tell you something, people joke with me, I move the furniture in my house, every six months or so just move it around. Periodically, people think I'm nuts. But it's because one has to get comfortable with change. We are sort of naturally as human beings again, as much as we say we embrace change. We don't we get in, we get into the rut. I told someone the other day, I had this little practice of mine. I every periodically, every month or so, I turn off my GPS. And I say, let me try to find my way home through a different route.

David Novak 31:10 

You're weird guy, you know that.

Johnny Taylor 31:12 

I am weird. But think about it. Let me tell you it's paid off on occasion when the main thoroughfare has an accident or shut down. And while everyone else is just sitting there pissed and turn the car off. I'm like, Yeah, but I know there's this third street that does dismissive, circuitous Lee, I get home, it happened just the other day. But my point is between curiosity and embracing change, you've got to exercise your mind to do that we are naturally curious to think as human beings and we can embrace change, but those muscles have atrophied. They really have because we don't use them. So I am very intentional about just creating change in my world in small ways. So that when big change happens, when there's a change of direction, with, for example, who's sitting in the White House, all of the direction at the Department of Labor, the EEOC, OSHA has changed. But if you've not used that muscle and gotten comfortable with it, you're gonna really, really struggle.

David Novak 32:09 

You know, you're You're such, you know, you talk about the need to change and reset your living example of that, obviously, you know, and you're passionate about innovation. So what what would be the biggest innovation you've seen? Recently at Sherm, we're inside your own company?

Johnny Taylor 32:24 

Yes. So, it would be the biggest I hate superlatives. But, but I think the biggest at its core would be, we have decided, we have this tagline, I almost wore the shirt today, a tagline that says, we're about policy, not politics. Okay. Now, you asked yourself, what does the site for human resource management have anything to do with that? Well, at its core, when I talk about all of the workplace laws that are coming down, we have to impact that. And you can't just show up when the party that you like, is in control. So I announced this idea from an innovation perspective that we're gonna raise the visibility of our policy work. I also said that what we're going to do is we're not going to be bipartisan, we're going to be nonpartisan, we will take on issues coming out of you know, as supported by the data and evidence and our and our knowledge department that creates it. And we're going to say, this is what we believe there'll be times when that is makes the Democrats happy. And there'll be times when it makes the Republicans happy, or sometimes when no one will be happy with our positions. But the biggest innovation that we've done in terms of raising the visibility of the profession, is to have a point of view, when informed by data when we go to policymakers. So it's just not the HR people who are carrying out rules and laws that are created by government, we're influencing those on the front end, so that we make for a better workplace. That is the thing I'm most proud of, if I'm forced to pick one over the other day, a lot of things I'm proud of, but that was a mindset and more than a mindset shift or resource shift, I had to spend a lot of money to do it. And then too, we had members who joined us because we were more left or more right. And for Sherm to say we ride right down was not even bipartisan. We're gonna pick policy and sometimes you're gonna like it. Sometimes you're not but it's really sound policy was a huge shift for us.

David Novak 34:13 

Well, that mindset is, is definitely unique in today's divisive world.

Johnny Taylor 34:17 

No question about that, especially in Washington, DC. Absolutely.

David Novak 34:21 

And Johnny, I know you agree, people and specifically talented, it's basically everything, you've got to have great talent around you. And and you talk about the pitfall of a safe hire, exploiting?

Johnny Taylor 34:35 

Yeah, so here we are. And there are a whole bunch of reasons that's a pitfall but the idea that we have that most of us look for the safe hire, we look for the person who has a perfect background, who comes out of central casting for the role has this number of years. So like we do that, and what we ended up in a lot of situations is one we have no diversity, and I don't just mean civil rights. diversity but also mean civil rights diversity, you get a whole bunch of people who look the same and that lack of diversity, and including diverse experiences, including someone who's been to jail, for example, you need all of this diversity to to actually compete in an increasingly diverse workplace. Right? So the pitfalls, the number one problem is you just lack diversity. When you're looking for the safe hire, you also overlook incredibly, incredibly unique talent. Because sometimes the unique talent, the the most talented people don't look like what we think is the right perfect, safe candidate. And so again, we're overlooking incredibly good talent, because we are looking for the safe hire, we do the checkbox checkbox checkbox. And then we hire that person and a lot of people like them. That's at its core, the concept of, you know, just the safe hire, and there are major pitfalls. Here's something that I remind people, increasingly no one's safe anymore. I mean, all of us have something the internet divulge just all of our dirtiest secrets, right? Even if you were 12. And you wrote something, right. And so we've got to get away from that. And that's something that HR professionals have to get to fully embraces well, is the idea that talent shows up in different places. I'm a big proponent of hiring, and you've seen this in the books, but untapped pools of talent going into the market. When we have very low labor participation rates, relatively speaking, you got a third of the population sitting on the sidelines not working. And it's because we in HR and you people managers are always looking for the safe hire.

David Novak 36:36 

Yeah, what made you an unsafe hire?

Johnny Taylor 36:40 

Oh my gosh, on so many levels. I am a disrupter. The safest hire if you want to talk about my role right here in Sherm. It's a 70, now three year old, but when I came in, it's a 70 year old organization that had done just fine. Numbers looking good. You've grown your bank account is your balance sheet is great. And so you could have hired someone like that to continue what has gone on for seven decades. Instead, they look for someone who's very different. Listen, I'm not trained, classically trained as an HR person, right? I come from private sector. I'm not a nonprofit leader in the traditional sense. There were a lot of things about me, I'm pretty, you know, aggressive out there. I'm the guy that says, Let's do non partisanship. Those were things that the board had to get its arms around because there were safer hires. I would submit to you that we wouldn't be where we are. Now. We've grown this business significantly. We've grown our in our influence significantly. And people like you CEOs have said, huh, Sherm is actually now irrelevant to me. And 10 years ago, not so much.

David Novak 37:47 

You know, once you have the talent, Johnny, you got to keep it, you know, what are the top three things you're doing at Sherm to keep your people?

Johnny Taylor 37:55 

Well, number one that we've all avoided for years, you've got to pay people. There is a true war for talent. There are real wage inflation issues right now, to ignore them means you're ignoring it. So the number one thing I've done is I've had to go back and say, how do we compete and not just compete with nonprofits? But how do we compete for talent in the broader market? Now I understand that I can't compete with companies who can throw a lot of equity etc. But I've had to look at compensation and total rewards. The second thing that we've said is we've got to listen to our employees. Now, let's be clear, and I hope everyone hears me, I listen to my daughter all the time, I have an 11 year old, but that doesn't mean I do what she says, I'm listening, and I'm listening to truly understand not listening to check the box. But listening is something we've not done enough of over time, you know, we never thought we had to do it, like you weren't here or you don't. And so we've said to keep people, they have to know that they are heard, and then finally communicate back. So it's pay, it's listening. And it's communicating that third sort of category of work, which is communicating, even if I hear you, and I decide for X y&z reasons, we're not going to go that way. What we've not done is communicated effectively, why so then people think you're actually not listening, and then they leave you. So those are the three things that we I think we've really had to focus on. But I'm going to start with pay and David, you know, we've all heard the line. People don't leave for pay. That's ridiculous. Of course they do. And we're seeing it right now in this great big turnover, tsunami or the great resignation. People are leaving for significant increases wage inflation is real. And you've got to have that top of mind right now or your head is in the sand.

David Novak 39:42 

I think competitive compensation is basically table table stakes. You have to have that okay. Well, a lot of research I've seen says people leave for two reasons. One, they don't get along with their boss and two they don't feel appreciated. What's your perspective on that

Johnny Taylor 39:55 

spot on number one reason that we know that most people leave is they don't quit their accompanies. They don't quit their HR department, they quit their people manager. And so this is an area that we have, right, we launched a new product called the P MQ, which is people manage a qualification. It's not for HR people, it's for frontline managers, because you're why we're losing people, I can recruit people all day. And if you burn through them, um, just in, you know, from a retail environment, where it's not unusual to see 80 90% turnover, most of those people left because they experienced bad people, managers, and you can blame the people managers. But oftentimes, we as an organization, chose people who weren't necessarily going to be great people, managers, and then we didn't equip them with the skills that they needed to be great people, managers, right. I'm a great engineer, that doesn't mean I'm gonna be a great manager of engineers, I just am a I'm the best engineer on the team. I'm there the longest, and so I get the job. So people, managers, training them, equipping them with the skills to be empathetic, for example, something that you may not naturally be as a human being is a part of it. No question. Your right pay is table stakes. But increasingly, this idea that because it's table stakes, we don't have to think about it is naive. But people manager, absolutely how to manage people is number one, and then this idea that you said, they don't feel respected, they don't see them feel valued. This gets to culture. And it's the point maybe you cut to the chase on it. But that's why listening to people, and then communicating whatever decisions you come up with, is so important. People have to feel like they ultimately are valued, heard and belong.

David Novak 41:33 

You know, you're a person who said that empathy is not a soft skill, you think it's a real business skill? That's do you differentiate those two things?

Johnny Taylor 41:44 

Yeah, I do. I do. And, and I think it's because when people hear empathy and conflate it with sympathy, that's the number one problem. And sympathy is softer. By definition, right? It's it's you, someone loses a parent, or sibling or whatever, and you sympathize with them, versus empathizing, this whole concept of every day trying to experience life, not just through your eyes, but through the eyes of the person. On the other side of the conversation. It's built into why I think we've had this real diversity problem in our organizations is because we can achieve diversity, we go hire people who are different by definition, you get diversity, but then we're not looking at them through their diverse experiences and trying to do it through the lens of empathy. As a result, you're bringing them in, and they're leaving very quickly. So it is now a business imperative. In a knowledge based economy. David, you don't have the luxury of having people just come and leave. We don't have enough human beings, I remind people that the American birth rate has dropped for the last two decades. In fact, last year, during the pandemic, we dropped 4% More fewer babies being born in this country. And what that means is we're gonna have a people problem, there's just a shortage of people. And when you have that bringing people into an environment that's not particularly empathetic when they can go get other jobs means you're going to lose them and thus lose the game. We did some research just recently at Sherm 93% of employees said they would leave a job that they like, okay, a job where I'm perfectly fine to go work for a more empathetic organization. So if that doesn't make the case, that this empathy is a business imperative, and not just a feel good, moral imperative. I don't know what does nine out of 10 of your employees are saying, Listen, I'll go to the guy across the street. If we're in a place where I think people are more empathetic in their approach, again, not to be confused with sympathy. It's empathy. Yeah.

David Novak 43:43 

So Right. You know, I think a lot of people out there like to fire their boss, you know, that's why you're, you know, you're a black CEO. And there's there's only five fortune 500 CEOs. Why so few, in your opinion.

Johnny Taylor 43:57 

Well, oh, gosh, that's a complicated one. But let me tell you, part of it is, most of us are first generation, right? And so you make a lot of mistakes along the way in your career, because you don't know now my daughter will have the advantage of a father who's been a CEO in the for profit space, as well as the nonprofit space like a Sherm. I ran a business for IAC as well. And I can help her avoid making some of those mistakes that often derail people on their way to become CEO. I think over time, as we have a black population of more CEOs and they can then pass down the messages about this, son, don't do that. Even when you're 20 in college, don't do that, because that's going to show up when you're 50. And some search firms who's considering you for CEO is going to say, you know, when you were 20, you said X or Y on social media, which by the way is is the nightmare for these kids. So The short answer is there's no shortage of black Americans who I think God was pretty damn fair and equal, egalitarian is giving talent. I think what we've got to do is we haven't had the experiences and people who can help us guide the way so that our careers aren't derailed on our way to the top there. Good

David Novak 45:16 

point. You know, Johnny, you're on the President's Advisory Council for historically black colleges, black colleges and universities. Why? Why are they so important today?

Johnny Taylor 45:27 

So let me tell you why they're important to me. The I didn't attend an HBCU, I attended the University of Miami and Drake University to higher end majority private schools. But what I know is that the HBCU, created the black professional and middle class. So I am a product of HBCUs, although I never matriculated on an HBCU campus. And so they are as important today as they were historically because they represent a point of pride from the African American community, it says, we can create an institution for us by us and actually improve the lot of our community. So they just stand for so much symbolically.

David Novak 46:08 

And I have to ask you, you know, how did the tragic murder of George Floyd affect you personally, in? What are you doing today differently because of it?

Johnny Taylor 46:19 

So toughen, personally, and so I want to answer that in the truest sense. I grew up in the South. I was always aware of this. I'm also old enough to have you remembered Rodney King. I mean, I can go through the list of names, right. So and this may bother some people, but to be honest, I was like, Yeah, I got it. This is what happens and can happen to you. So personally, to be very transparently, not a lot. I was already fully appreciative of the country that we live in. It's good and it's not so good. I was appreciative of, you know, how I should interact with police officers in a when I'm a true minority. I grew up in South Florida, but guess what, I went to law school in Iowa, okay, I Oh, it could not be a wider place. Right. And so, personally, this it was like, Okay, now, when I broaden personally a little bit more, what did happen to me over the last year is I began even as an African American, I want you to follow me is a very important and nuanced point. I did not appreciate how much of an impact it had on some of my fellow African Americans. Do you follow me so even though I was fine with it, not fine with it, and I want to be clear, of course, he it was horrible. It was tragic. It was senseless. I actually grew up in Fort Lauderdale with Benjamin Crump, the lorry who represents George Floyd and therefore his family. And then I had the Floyd brothers, his two brothers come here to Sherm to talk with my employees about just that. This is their experience. It's not an experience that I had in America, here you are three black men on the stage, my experience was very different than their experience. And so it was really an important point for me to even say, even though we appear to have common experiences, we were different, even amongst black people there. There it is the diversity amongst three black men growing up in America. And so what it did was it it literally made me more empathetic, believe it or not, the George Floyd moment. You know, here I am, I've had a very incredibly successful career. God has been good. I have resources. So I don't know what it's like to be a George Floyd. I don't know. And, and so I became more empathetic. And his brothers talked about working in warehouses, and not being given fair opportunities when they discussed it with my employees here. And I was sitting there saying, Wow, I never thought about that people, managers, they talked about some great people, managers, and some horrible people, managers. So that's what it's done is actually made me more empathetic. Now. That's,

David Novak 48:57 

that's, that's really a very insightful point. You know, and you mentioned this, this is such a complicated subject. But if you're forced to give just three bits of advice to leaders on, on how to drive diversity and inclusion in their organization, what would it be three bits.

Johnny Taylor 49:17 

Love it. Number one, I can judge you by who you hired to lead your your diversity and inclusion, work. Putting someone in there just because they happen to be black or a woman or LGBTQ whatever, without any real skill at doing it is tantamount to hiring somebody to be your CFO who doesn't have background as a CFO. And so I number one, if you're serious about diversity, equity inclusion, then hire someone who has an evidence background of being able to drive DNI strategies. That's number one. Number two is you've got to resource it. There's no way that you can say go do this job. But here's your $25,000 budget to be split amongst community organizations. Check the box, we've done it. You've got to put financial resources against it. And number three, this is a change management initiative you got when it comes to specifically the diversity dimension of race, we're 400 years out of slavery, it took a long time for us to get to this point. And it's not going to be overcome or fixed overnight. So this is going to take time, anyone who decides that they're going to embark upon a real commitment of changing their culture around DNI means they're going to do this for five, seven years at a minimum. So don't think that you're going to see immediate results. And that this is all going to be sort of an initiative that you can check the box on those three things, who you put in the job, how you resource it, and then you're, you're a willingness to be patient while you transform people's hearts and their minds.

David Novak 50:44 

Using your parlance. It's definitely a constant reset, you know, yes. And Johnny self awareness. I know you agree with this. So self awareness is critical for every leader, how do you go about self coaching yourself? And what are you working on today to become a better leader?

Johnny Taylor 50:59 

So believe it or not, I have two executive coaches. And listen, I wish I had gotten to you earlier, because I would have loved for you to join me, I have two of them. And I split them into two, I have someone who helps me on business strategy, I told you, I'm first generation, I don't know how to do this necessarily. I don't want to make all the mistakes and learn on the chops. I have a business strategy, executive coach, and then I have a leadership coach, someone who helps me understand how to be more empathetic. I, for example, back to this question of diversity. I don't assume that just because I'm black, I'm a diversity expert. I know what my experience is. So I use an executive coach to be the person who steps outside and helps me understand how a person of the LGBT community feels how someone who's been incarcerated feels like I need that person to help you know, this more than I know, these are lonely jobs, as the CEO, you actually don't have a lot of people you can turn to. And even if you're in a community of other CEOs, they're all swamped and stressed, too. So what do we do? I'll get together and drink ourselves out of these roles. Right? But But seriously, so I've used two executive coaches, in my case to keep my my keep me my head in the game. That's number one. What am I personally personally working on? One, it is empathy. And I say that because I'm not I haven't always been, I'm a very hard driving business leader. And you know, I'm the guy who said to someone, and I, now I can reflect on it. And we all are hopefully better today than we were yesterday. But I told someone who, a woman years ago, a lawyer on my team was telling me about the challenges she was having at home, because she was trying to be a mother and a lawyer and data and I said, Listen, you and your husband decided to have children, not me. Now, I looked back and said, I can't believe I said that to someone. But I did. And I meant it. My true self is like, I've got to balance my life, you got to figure out how to balance yours. But that was so 80s 1980s, right, have a management philosophy. And so, but I will literally that's still a part of how I think because I'm so like, the guy who has to solve his own problems like you consider and tell me your problems all day. But Johnny, you've got to solve your own problems. So as a result, I am working on being more empathetic and trying to understand how not to be so hard driving and so absolut. That's a big effort for me, people see this guy who's, you know, lovely, and he loves people and I do love people. But I also believe very strongly in sort of personal accountability and figuring out your own problems. I don't, but that's how I'm biased. So I use I'm working on that.

David Novak 53:41 

You know, I think that that kind of transparency is very motivational and unique and inspiring to your people. So good for good for you for being so open on it. You know, this is so much fun Johnny and I have enjoyed this conversation. I want to have a little bit more with you with a lightning round of q&a. Have some fun with it here. What three words best describe you.

Johnny Taylor 54:01 

Demanding? Funny and capitalist?

David Novak 54:07 

If you could be one person besides yourself, who would it be in NY? Oh, gosh.

Johnny Taylor 54:13 

Gosh, that's a tough one. I would want to be Oprah Winfrey. And it's because she literally has made herself a household name and and just been incredibly successful despite the odds.

David Novak 54:31 

What's your biggest pet peeve?

Johnny Taylor 54:36 

Lazy people.

David Novak 54:37 

What's something about you that few people would know?

Johnny Taylor 54:41 

As a young man, I was on Wheel of Fortune. And I won teen week I was the winner of the week on Wheel of Fortune when I was 13 years old. 14 years old.

David Novak 54:51 

Do you have any hidden talents? No. You've written Very insightful business book with reset. What's your favorite business book? Good to Great, the most, most exciting thing you have to look forward to,

Johnny Taylor 55:11 

um, hopefully this book selling. And I make one of the big lists the New York Times Wall Street Journal list.

David Novak 55:18 

Good luck. You know, two more questions for you. First, what are the three traits you see in the most successful leader?

Johnny Taylor 55:27 

Empathy? Curiosity. I mean, true curiosity. And how do I describe it? I don't know if that's the right way to describe it, but incredibly competitive.

David Novak 55:44 

Now, that's a good one, you know, and I got two more questions. I'm gonna ask you. Real quick. What's your favorite interview question? Had to ask you that one for goodness sakes

Johnny Taylor 55:54 

favorite interview? Question is? What are you bad at?

David Novak 55:59 

And why DSM?

Johnny Taylor 56:01 

Because it goes to something we mentioned earlier, people who are great at everything, they lack self awareness. Anyone who can truly answer What are you not so good or bad at outright bad? So just not moderately good. Like, I'm not good at this. It has a real good. I believe it's an indicator of their self awareness.

David Novak 56:23 

And lastly, you know, I understand that you're a single parent father. Yes. You know, how do you balance all that comes with that?

Johnny Taylor 56:32 

You just do it. You wake up every day, my parents divorced. As I mentioned earlier, I have three siblings, and my mother raised three children with far fewer resources than I have. So I just wake up every day, put one foot in front of the other. My number one job in the world is to be a great daddy to that 11 year old girl. That's bigger than Sherm. It's bigger than being a son or anything else. It's number one. And so every day I just wake up and my guidance might, that's my contribution to this world, people will forget how much money I have, what my titles were, etc. But they're going to remember, they will look at me and judge me based upon how that little girl grows up.

David Novak 57:10 

Oh, you know, Johnny, you're terrific guy. Congratulations on your new book, it's pretty clear. While you're the CEO of this huge organization, I want to thank you so much for taking the time to be with me today.

Johnny Taylor 57:23 

Thank you, my friend, I appreciate you have a great weekend.

David Novak 57:35 

Well, I knew I was going to enjoy that conversation, because I just love talking about people and the importance of people and the importance they have in every organization. Now, if you work with people, there was so much to learn from Johnny about hiring, about retention about how to come into an organization that's maybe a little sleepy, and then really drive some big time change. But I gotta admit, there was one moment that really shocked me. And that was when Johnny shared that a whopping 93% of people would leave a job that they actually like to work in a more empathetic organization that tells you just how important empathy is. We have to actively develop empathy and look for ways to see situations through our employees eyes, we can't afford to overlook it. And hey, because you're listening today, you won't, especially with this quick bit of coaching. This week, as a part of your weekly personal development plan. I want you to come up with a one initiative that will make your organization more empathetic to your employees. Johnny had some great ideas that they're using the term to help their members organizations develop empathy. For example, you can coach your HR department to find ways to get to yes, instead of just blindly following a compliance handbook, or you can work towards what Johnny calls a challenge culture that helps employees feel safe, speaking up about what's not working. Both of those ideas are driven by empathy by understanding a situation from our employees perspectives, and really responding to their feedback. I bet you've got some ideas of your own too. When we can see empathy as a business skill that we can develop, then we can tap into all kinds of creative ways to grow stronger and more loyal teams. So do you want to know how leaders lead? What we learned today is the great leaders treat empathy as a business skill. Thanks again for tuning in to another episode of how leaders lead where every Thursday you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world. I make it a point to give you something simple on each episode that you can apply to your business so that you will become the best leader you can be