David Novak 0:04 

Welcome to How leaders lead where every week you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world, I break down the key learnings so that by the end of the episode, you'll have something simple you can apply as you develop into a better leader. That's what this podcast is all about. Today's episode is with one of my very best friends Jimmy Dunn. He's the vice chairman and senior managing principal at Piper Sandler. He was one of the founders of Sandler, O'Neill and partners, which was acquired by Piper Jaffray in 2020. And he's renowned for how he led his firm in the wake of the 911 attacks on the World Trade Center. 66 of his associates died that day, including the firm's founder Herman Sandler, and Jimmy's best friend, Chris Quackenbush. Now, you're gonna learn that Jimmy is really gifted with the ability to think about something from someone else's perspective, and then anticipate what they need. And that's at the heart of what makes him such an inspiring leader. Jimmy made the incredible decision early on in the wake of the attacks that the firm needed to provide for the families of fallen associates, including a college education for every child who lost a parent. I can remember like it was yesterday, I was sitting on a runway getting ready to take off for an investor meeting in San Francisco, and those towers went down. Man, was that devastating? Can you imagine having it happening to your entire firm? Well, Jimmy's ability to anticipate the needs of others not only helped him lead through this crisis, but it also helped him prepare for that awful day before it even arrived. And it's a wonderful reminder for all of us to look out for the people we serve, by thinking about what they need, even before they do. It's such a privilege to talk to Jimmy today. And I know you're going to be so inspired by his incredible empathy and passion to do the right thing for his people. So here's my conversation with my good friend, and soon to be yours. Jimmy Dunn, the third.

Jimmy, I want to thank you so much for taking the time to have this conversation.

Jimmy Dunne 2:21 

Well, I'm delighted to do it. David, you're my favorite.

David Novak 2:25 

Jimmy is, as you are so well aware, this is the 20th anniversary of 911. We all remember where we were when that happened. Tell us where you were at and what happened to your firm?

Jimmy Dunne 2:39 

Well, sure, David. I was trying to qualify for the US bed Amateur Championship. I just left Christian Herman that Monday at the World Trade Center. And I hope I'm not wasting a lot of my time and effort. And I oddly enough, I had that very same feeling a couple of Sundays ago when I drove to New Jersey to try qualify for the senior and this year, but you know, I anyway, so I set out that morning, you know, is a lonely night, and I had, I did not it was an odd feeling. I didn't feel good. And but I got up the next day. And I went over to the qualifier and there was a delay. But then we started out and I, you know, I had a very good shot and my second shot and I was off and running. And after about four or five holes, I think I was 100 poor. And a man from the USGA come out and told me I had to call the office. And so he was determined to get me in. He wouldn't tell me what it was. And then when he was driving me back to the clubhouse, I remembered Herman Herman saying when I left the day before, look, Chris is going to be here tomorrow, I'm going to be here tomorrow, nothing is going to happen. You always call in before you start and get yourself worked up. I was on the trading side pretty much at that time. And although I'd moved over to banking a little bit, and he said, some don't call in. And I didn't. And so I remember thinking what possibly could go wrong, how many Krista there? I prefer they make the decision rather than me, whatever it is,

David Novak 4:13 

yeah. You know, Jimmy, you you'd lost 66 out of 171 Associates, including Herman Sandler, your mentor, Chris Quackenbush. You're your best friend. How'd you possibly manage through that crisis?

Jimmy Dunne 4:28 

Well, you know, I think like a lot of us I had had good parents, good family. Faith, education. And I always do this a little differently. i My view was always what else would I possibly do? I mean, you know, this is this is a moment in time. I mean, when we were younger, my father spent a lot of time talking to us about people that he thought were extraordinary. That melts Nelson Rendell is and he was very fun. Did you know John Kennedy, but, you know, he had a variety of people that he thought could really stand up in the storm and do do the right thing when it was difficult. He was always that was something he preached really on. But don't do the easy thing, do the right thing. So I knew every second that what I had to do, and I didn't know how it was going to what the outcome was, I knew what makes mistakes. But I was, you know, the one thing I was not going to do was was to run and I and I, I was keenly aware that I had young children and what I did there, and how we acted would stay with our family for a long time. And regardless of the outcome, regardless of whatever the cost would be. I was not going to leave my kids with a legacy that I didn't stand up.

David Novak 5:52 

Well, you certainly stood up. There's no question about that. And I understand that Herman Sandler's wife really gave you some powerful words of encouragement.

Jimmy Dunne 6:00 

Yeah, she she really? There were a couple moments that I think were where I was fragile that were actually people. I, you know, I don't know if they save the firm, but they saved me. and I were to sit Shiva, with Sookie and her family and because the hermit and I was not feeling good then. And, you know, the thing I really learned about great friendships. And I didn't know it till then, is what was great with Herman saying the great with Chris Quackenbush is when I was feeling my weakness, when I was feeling my most insecure, I had my most doubt, I would go and talk to them. I wouldn't even necessarily tell them what it was, I would just talk around it this and that. And they were magnificently generous. And they had a very high opinion higher than my own and my own ability. And they would be, you know, wait a minute notch. I mean, you can do this Herman, standard and quack quack in which were very much that way to me. And so with not having them that made it difficult, and then the whole, it was just daunting that night, because now we read, took his house. You know, it was Herman's house, I'd been there 10 million times. And it was just, it was sad, and I was feeling bad. And I cried that night, and I cry now all the time. But I used to not cry much 20 years ago, and and she sort of grabbed me, and took me into a room. And she said, look, here's the reality. They had a meeting first time, Chris never met without you. And they said, Look, two of the three of you have to go. And they both agreed that you were the one that could run it. Now cry for a little while. You cheer it up, get your, you know, basically get your SRE or go do your job. And it's very hard to and it was it was like cold water. I mean, and, and that was that really, that was an incredibly important time. Now, what she didn't know, was months earlier. I don't know what I was thinking about. But I talked to him and about, look, you know, something could happen someday, too. You. And if it did, we need to be ready. And you need to have this lined out so that Chris will take over, because I don't know there'll be some people that might not agree with that. And we got to get that formalized. And he just I remember he just turned from his desk he called Chris's office say Chris, can you come in for a second? He says isn't sure he came down to Herman's office. He goes What's up boys? And Herman said, Chris, Jimmy's having a little more of a thought here. And it's about if I go down, which I'm not going to what? You know, that you take over. And Chris, as much as I love you, I completely disagree with that. And Jimmy should take over. And I wanted to hear your view. And I want to get this straight now. And Chris said, I couldn't agree with you more Jimmy should run. said okay, we've settled that. Let's go back to work.

David Novak 9:14 

Well, you had to go back to work and you went after it. And you not only rallied the people inside your firm, you got people on the outside to help you to how did all that come together?

Jimmy Dunne 9:26 

Well, Americans are good people. And I wasn't so much I got them to come they came with their own volition. They came with their own desire. Everybody was trying to help us. A friend of mine I remember said to me one day and he said, How does it feel like to have 240 million Americans supporting you? So that's that's the way it was. It was not me. They people react magnificently during a crisis, and they really wanted to help. And so we had either form A lot of encouragement, or people that came to work or people that came to volunteer, or people that was wanting to give us, you know, business. It was it was, it was pretty much across the board, and it was overwhelming.

David Novak 10:13 

You know, one of the things that you did right off the bat, and again, you know, it looks like your firm could potentially go under, and you immediately tell everybody that their their kids, their kids are going to get a college education, talk about that, it's took a lot of courage to step up and say this, this is going to happen. Well,

Jimmy Dunne 10:34 

you know, the reality of what I do is I always try to be empathetic and feel like what the other side is, or what's how someone else is feeling. And I was sort of alone. I mean, I didn't sleep in those days, I don't really sleep much now. But I really didn't sleep in those days. And so late night, I was thinking about, well, if I just, if Susan, for example, if I was gone, what would be going through Susan's mind. And the first thing is, your kids. And the second thing is your grief. And then your fourth thing is, how do you pay for all this? So I sort of said, well, let's, let's see if we can make this burden a little easier. And that we, their first instinct would be cash flow immediately. So I wanted to assure them, that we would pay them, you know, right through the through the years, so there wouldn't be any cash flow change. And in addition to that, they'd be getting bonuses that were equal to or greater than any bonus they've ever gotten. So that their cash flow through the out through the following February, we're going to be planning changed, alright. And then the next thing was, was benefits. And our CFO had figured out that we can probably get to five years of benefits. And I just doubled it. And, you know, I did and in so I felt like okay, cash flow on the immediate side, and then benefits. I didn't know then what the government was going to do. And of course, they came up with the relief program, which was incredibly valuable. And then And then the last thing was education and between Ken Langone and Stan Druckenmiller and Andy Armstrong and Tim near. They helped me start this foundation. And because they they run it to this day. And the idea was quite specific, because those guys are all very specific and very smart. I had said to Tim, near on the day of the 11th. Look, Tim, I'm not going to melt here. I'm not going to, I'm not going to fumble away. You need to give me the unsung unvarnished truth all the time. And don't worry about how I'm handling this. I'm good when things are bad. And he said, No, I know that Jimmy and I will. And so we started he Bay he Andy and Chuck Whitmer started this foundation, which was designed solely to raise enough money to pay for all the educations. And once they were all done, it was going to be done. And we're just about at that point now. But what was very good from a commercial aspect, David, which I didn't really appreciate, at the time we did it is that once we paid all the salaries, decided to pay all the benefits, started to raise the money and then invested the money to pay for all the education's it set a tone amongst all the families and all the whole 911 In the old community, as the god these guys are. They're doing the right thing. Yeah, we there was a spree decor that was established within the firm. Now, I was always known as the hard guy. So there was probably a perception like Jimmy's doing this, there's got to be the money there to do it. Now there wasn't okay. We didn't have that kind of money, you know, and but it built a confidence and swagger in the firm, and it had a huge effect. And then what we really was really interesting is how the larger firms were following what we were doing. So you know, there was a we're not waiting around here. We're telling you what's going to happen, the rest of us can follow us. And then we had this little big firm mentality, which was exciting. And it was fulfilling it really was.

David Novak 14:23 

Well that's the old say, you know, when you do the right things, the right things happen. And that seemed to clearly be the case. Jimmy, I know you get letters from these kids that get the their education all the time. Do you have one you could a story you could share with us of someone that got the education from the foundation?

Jimmy Dunne 14:41 

Well, the thing the thing I found most interesting about this and my partner Fred price and made this point they're wonderfully appreciative and it's fantastic the schools that the people have gone to, and the stories we had six graduate from college recently from colleges, Boston College, Cornell, Notre Dame Fordham, the thing that they really appreciate is that their mother or father was not forgotten. And that's the most touching thing to me. They feel that we were a vehicle that coordinated there, their, their, their life to their parent, that somehow that parent was providing this. And they're 100%, right? Their parent was providing this, it was just, we were just a vehicle to do it. But that was the most touch with and that was meaningful to me, because it gave me a sense of what we're doing really. I mean, we knew what we were doing was right, we knew is economically, right. I mean, but for the fact that they were appreciative that we were not letting their parents be forgotten that that was what really was valuable. And also, so many of those majority of men talked about the relief that it gave their mother. And I like that.

David Novak 15:57 

Yeah, that's that's, that hit you. Right, right in the heart. You know, I've never really asked you this, Jimmy, but I'm gonna ask you this, you know, what did you feel when we actually took down Osama bin Laden?

Jimmy Dunne 16:12 

I was ecstatic. I wish I could have done it myself. I remember where I was, I remember the reaction. And I remember having having dinner a member thing a detail later on. And some bonehead was saying how, you know, this reaction in the street is going to have ramifications and they're going to hit us again. I didn't get into it because I don't talk about 911 Unless it's, you know, I've got it. I'm not gonna get into an argument about 911. Okay. And I remember thinking, you know, these young people are, you know, that the use of reaction, that explosive reaction of joy in the streets, he needed to be killed, he needed to be stopped, and you can get into all this crap. You know, this guy. We needed to get him and I have talked to the man that shot him. And I wish it was me.

David Novak 17:10 

Well, Jimmy, you know, you obviously did an amazing job with your team you know, supporting your people and rebuilding your firm into one of the top on Wall Street and you recently sold your your company to Piper Jeffries. You know, I love getting into the head of how leaders make big decisions. Tell us why you sold the company.

Jimmy Dunne 17:30 

Well, early on about I'd say eight years before we did the deal with Piper Jaffray. Chad Abraham, I was really worried about the deficit. Little did I know what was to come but, and I thought that the only possible way out of this was they would have to raise taxes, raise capital gains rate. And you McCall had come to my office. And he brought this beautiful cross that was built that was taken from the steel at the World Trade Center. And I still have and I treasure it. And he is very heavy. And he carried it around all around the streets in New York to give it to me, and, and we got we, you know, we, I was very appreciative to get it. And then after that, we started to talk and we started to talk about, I was talking about taxes, and what things what things could happen in the economy. And he said, Well, you know, in the late 60s and 70s, marginal tax rates had gotten to 90%. And I didn't want to argue with you, McCall. So I said, you know, and then I didn't believe that. And so when he left, I did what I always do, and I called Stan Druckenmiller, okay. And I said, you know, drug business? Oh, no, yeah, they definitely did. And he sent me a graph showing it. And that was like, what, we've got to do something here because this is where marginal tax rates are going. And, anyway, and so we we tried to find a partner, because I thought let's, you know, let's let's let's, let's liquidate it and then go from there. We I couldn't find somebody I was comfortable with that wanted to do the deal with us that I was comfortable with. So we then had the notion of invest selling a portion of a minority stake 40% to private equity firms, which were, we did do and they were both wonderful partners for a while until so. And so I could harvest some of the value at capital gains, right? We prefer these are and still maintain, control the firm and have an ongoing business. And if we were wrong, and it was a bad investment, a bad mistake to do that. We still own 60% of the firm. That'd be a good, good, good problem. So once we did that, at some point in time, you have to get them out, which means either you got to go back again and rebuy everything or you got to go public or you've got to sell and I felt like as great as our business was as efficient and as effective. It wasn't diversified enough to to be go public. So I didn't think the world needed another small public company. And so over that period of time, I had had several conversations with different CEOs at Piper Jaffray. And I think early on, we could have done the deal. And both with John Whitehead actually said, Jimmy, you're not. You're not ready not to be the guy. You know, this is not at time for you to do this. And then I didn't. And I think he was probably right. And so now at this time, John Doerr was running things, I really wanted to just more get in decline and deal related stuff. I had spent a long time doing all the other managed stuff, I enjoyed it, but I was pretty good at it. I'm good. I was, but I had a way. And so we, we had to find a partner. And we had gotten to know them very carefully over a long period of time. And when the key thing, David, that changed the dough for me, was when they offered this to put Sandler name in the name. And I remember thinking to myself, like we just talked it, I had dinner with the board Tuesday night. And I said, but I'm not on the board, which John Doyle is, should be in is on the board. And I'm not totally right. And I started thinking about, you know, when I've advised people, I don't let I tell them like, look, is the name that important is where the name is that I would spend a lot of time saying that this is this is this should not be as big deal as it was, well, I can say that all I want, but I'm promising you to me, it was a big deal. And, and then when I was in, so I knew it was the right thing to do. And with the name thing, and the fact that kept sirmans name and the firm, that really, really motivated me. And it was a smart thing on their part. And what I found very interesting, David, not unlike 911 itself, but the calls I got from different people saying how thrilled they were about it, some not even client, George Roberts KKR George Roberts called me and said, Jimmy, I hope this is good for you. I'm sure it is. I'm so happy. The sailor name stayed in the name. And I was like, you know, I remember thinking about so why would you care about it. So it was it was really the right thing. And when to round out the old story I'm sure I might stories is so long. But when I was at the Piper offices in Minneapolis, this Piper Sandler offices in Minneapolis on Tuesday, the CEO Chad Abraham said, you know, Jimmy, you can't believe how much our reputation or investors who we talked to has been enhanced by having to stamp their name. And that was a wonderfully generous thing to say. And, and then I then the man I met with the Manage beam. And I almost wonder, was he just saying it to me, which I always trust, but verify. I'm a Rick, I'm a Reagan, Reagan Republican, you know, and I had asked that and unanimous usually from the CFO to the President to the to the general counsel that Oh, my God, what a difference. It's bad, you know. And so that really, that's sort of has come full cycle for me as really this week.

David Novak 23:18 

How hard is it for you to not be the man you mentioned that earlier? And and, and and how are you focusing your efforts on the firm now? Well,

Jimmy Dunne 23:30 

it was interesting, because I mean, it was pretty tough. We close the deal in you year and a half ago, January. And it wasn't much long into it before COVID had hit and the stock we did the deal at 71 or so. The stock went to 38. I think at some point, I did buy some stock there. Sold it too early, but I bought some stock, but a lot was going on. And part of me was I was missing it. I wish I was that guy. I wish I could do this. But it wasn't. And appropriately. I wasn't called into a lot of those discussions. I think John was, well, one John shouldn't have and two it was but I missed it. I didn't say anything, but I missed. I didn't I didn't like it. I didn't like that they didn't need my help. That's it, but a few months into it. I started to say geez, I'm kind of I kinda I kind of like not being in these things and just just trying to work on client and productive stuff. And then recently, I never ever respond anything but I recently responded on an email which led to a lot of other emails and and I found myself back into it, and then I think they were appreciative that I was but I need to find Which they did quite quickly. I've changed it, I'm not gonna deny it, I missed it, I still miss it. I think I get right back into it if it created itself. But that's there was a time for that I had that a long time. And I did the best I could. And now what I really liked doing it I'm very intuitive is if a client wants to be involved, or another banker wants to be involved, or a lawyer, Wolfram feels that I can be particularly good at something, I revel at the opportunity and I give him my best and I have the time to do it, because I'm not doing all that other stuff, which I can advise a lot of time.

David Novak 25:40 

You also just recently made the commencement speech at your alma mater, Notre Dame where you basically took the spot that Joe Biden, our president was supposed to take, and that's such a big honor to fill in the shoes of a sitting president. And then, you know, getting to give this commencement speech at Notre Dame, did you have any trepidation or anxiety? How'd you get over?

Jimmy Dunne 26:05 

Yeah, yes, is the answer to that. Okay. And you know, the reality of it has traditionally at Notre Dame, when you have a first a new president, they come and speak to the first graduating class, and I'm sure we extended an invitation to the President and whatever, he didn't come, okay. I got a call that evening from our president, father, John Jenkins. I said, Hey, John, everything okay? And he said, Well, Jimmy, we have a problem, and I have a solution. And I said, well, good, then you don't need me. And he said, No, no, you're the solution. And then he told me, you know, that he asked me to do this. And I, I said, Look, John, I can get you somebody to do it. I mean, we'll get Condoleezza Rice, or I'll get Cardo doe, and we'll, we'll get someone good, you know? And he was like, No, I need I want it to be you. Because you anniversary, 911 20 years, and these kids have had a tough year. But I think it'd be healthy for them to hear your story a little bit. And I was not going to do it. I was absolutely not going to do it. And I called Father John the next day. And I said, Look, John, if you have 30 people in a bar, you want me to talk to I can do that Notre Dame Stadium with 25,000 people with all the academic people that this is not for me. And he said, Look, that's it. My mind's made up and I made a deal with him that if, if he got a last minute call from Washington, DC, I wanted to bow out and let the President said, do it. He's in and you won't do that. And he said, No, I won't do that. I said, Well, that's our deal. And he said, Okay. And then he announced that I was speaking shortly after that. So we opened with the Wall Street banker. But yeah, I guess in terms of trepidation, nervousness, I was extremely. And then Sunday, when we were coming in with the chairman of the board, Jack Brennan, and President father, Jenkins, and myself, I was really nervous. And I basically said, I said, Look, boys, if I flop here, you know, it's gonna be bad. It's bad. For me, it was like, you two guys look like a couple of dumdum. And I think Jack said, I know. And following John, you know, he turned around, and he said, You know, it's absolutely, he said, I've never been more comfortable with anything I've done as president, than what I'm doing right now. And that made me think back to that Herman and Chris. And when you're feeling bad, when you're feeling your most vulnerable, if you have a good friend, they can instill that confidence in you. They can give you that thing that you can't get on your own. But I remember he and he was so calm and confident about it. And he didn't ask to read it. I usually wouldn't write it because they don't read well. And even when I'm reading something, and he said, You do whatever you think you need to do. And he was just so matter of fact about it. And I'm thinking, Man, this guy is he's got the wrong horse here. And then, you know, we went in, and then his introduction was terrific, you know, it was real. It was basically no one that sat were in these seats in 1978 would have guessed that Jimmy John would be giving the commencement at some point. No, certainly not in features in this and that. And that caused me a little bit. He said, except for his closest friends, and that he was perfect. Well, you didn't

David Novak 29:31 

you obviously didn't flop I mean, this this speech, you know, you need to go online. If you haven't heard it, it's absolutely amazing. national media everywhere, you know, talked about it. It was a home run. What was the biggest thing you wanted the students to hear from you? Well, if you could just encapsulate it.

Jimmy Dunne 29:52 

Well, the first thing is gratitude that you didn't get here on your own. You're not can do anything in life on your own. And think about who directed you here initially, think about the people that supported you to get here. So the first thing was grad. The second thing was an appreciation of what you got. But you now have a Notre Dame degree, you now have met the people here, you now part of us. And then Notre Dame is always going to be a part of you. You know, we have a place where we go and pray and think and called the Grotto and I said, you don't know grow the Grotto. I was there this morning, and will always be here for you. So it's your turn, you will be challenged. Planes may not fly in the building you're at, but you're going to be challenged. And you need a home base of sorts. And this is it. And then responsibility. That look you've had it's been tough. COVID has not been easy, it is cumbersome. It is difficult. It is it is it is unusual, ongoing, every day seeming, never going away pain in the neck, and series. And you know, things have happened, you get the daily health checks, you had the, you know, they took down the basketball hoops, I mean, it's from the little tiny things to the bigger things. And they made certainly football Saturdays a little different. And I tried to put that perspective too. But there are a lot of, you know, my father always said someone day I was, and I don't, I'm not much of a complainer, and I think it goes back to this point. I was complaining about something. And he said, you know, seven, Jimmy boy, he said, This is something we do every now. And then we take all our problems, all the things that are going wrong in our life, right now. We put it in a box, and we bring it up to this mountain. And everybody in the world puts their problems in that box. And then we get to see everybody else's problems. You grab your box, and you get the hell out of it. And I want to convey a little of that. And then finally, and ultimately, I wanted to convey the responsibility that they have, because they have an early in education. And that while we have a lot of different disciplines, we're about leadership. And there's a value to a Catholic education. And there's a value to this place. And if it plays to quote Hapa Lee, if this place didn't exist, we'd have to create it. And you should be very proud of that. But we're proud of that means you know, you you want to be you want to be an example of what that is all about. And then just the joy of the day. So those are, that's what I tried to do

David Novak 32:39 

was great. You didn't try you definitely untried. You made it happen Jimmy it's always so enjoyable being with you and now I want to have a little bit of fun if we could with a lightning round of q&a You ready for this? All right. Three words that best describe you

Jimmy Dunne 32:58 

three words that best describe me. That's that's a tough question. You always say it's tough.

David Novak 33:04 

It's supposed to be a lightning round up.

Jimmy Dunne 33:10 

Resilience determined, joyful.

David Novak 33:15 

If you could be one person for a day other than yourself. Who would it be and why?

Jimmy Dunne 33:22 

Aaron judge

David Novak 33:32 

what's your biggest pet peeve?

Jimmy Dunne 33:36 

I got a lot of pet peeves, but tardiness. I think people should be early. Not on time.

David Novak 33:44 

Believe me. I was early for to do this podcast. Okay. leader, the leader you admire most and why?

Jimmy Dunne 33:51 

Lincoln. Because what he overcame, he failed it almost every he failed up all the way. And the thing I'm most love about Lincoln is a style. Shelby white, I think his name was the great Mississippi and then a great writer, who probably started disliking Lincoln when he started out and then the end of his writings, he revered them. And he said that Lincoln as an attorney, what would be gave you the appearance of a bumbling, bumbling fool and was easily easily underestimated. And then Shelby said, until it was too late to disabuse them of that notion. And I love that about Lincoln. I wish I was more that way. And he was he was a kind hearted, principled person, but he was also willing to get to the dirty end of the pool and come out clean he was he would use his you know, he would use his resources to get to the right answer.

David Novak 34:56 

What's something about you Jimmy that few people would know?

Jimmy Dunne 35:01 

When I was so shy in high school, I wouldn't go to the cafeteria, because I could never figure out the right place to sit. Wow,

David Novak 35:10 

I would have never guessed that, would you have a hidden talent? Memory? You do not forget a big question about that.

Jimmy Dunne 35:20 

I think that goes back to my mother because I remember I, I had I have a real reading issue. disability, and in those days on Forge, and so they figured it out early on. Because I brought it home to my mother about why, you know, and, and I wish she had handled this differently. But she took the piece of paper up. And she said, who teaches this course I said, Well, Sister, sister, Mary Assam, and she crumpled it up and threw it out and said, What course did she teach? And I said that literature? And she said, Yeah, you get 100% in that course, not an A, not an A minus 100%. What does she know? I wish she'd say, well, let's go figure out this law. But but it then and then I had this ability to have just memorized. Yeah. And so I I found that there was a way to get A's it wasn't going to be the traditional way. And I you know, and then I established the way I could do it and hard work. And then I got A's. Yeah. Yeah. Which he had figured it out the other way.

David Novak 36:35 

Jimmy, you know, what, three bits of advice would you give aspiring leaders,

Jimmy Dunne 36:40 

don't be afraid to make a mistake. But as but that's easy. Everyone will tell you that what I will tell you is don't offend. People that defend the stakes go nowhere. And which is incredibly powerful. Once you defend, when you say I did that it was wrong, they never fire you for that. You know, and everybody in the room says, you know, they're there, they're comfortable with themselves, you've got to demonstrate some degree of comfortableness with yourself. The other is, you've got to be your best at the most tense moments. And maybe be your most forgiving, and kindness, you'd be biggest at the toughest times. And it isn't enough just to be calm, under under fire, that's a given. There's nobody that's not calm, when it really counts. It's to be able to have the confidence to implement it, and be able to be persuasive enough, so others will follow

David Novak 37:41 

you. Those are all great points. And there's another one that you've really provided me which I couldn't agree with more. And I know you coach your kids on this as well. It's anticipation.

Jimmy Dunne 37:54 

You know, my father, I got a lot of great stuff on my father. And I just thinking just the other day that he really is, did a better job than I then I did my best, but he was better. And you know, he used to always know, I used to annoy him. Guys with, you know, that was supposedly a lot very smart. They love to hear themselves talk. And they go on and on and on. And he would say like, the sport guys in a board meeting. They know what they have to say they say it clearly. But they're really thinking about how is this? How is the other side going to react to this? What are going to be their issues, and really being empathetic to what what where their situation is and try to anticipate their challenges. And always think about what's coming. And if you look at what made Gretzky great as people would always talk about he would stay to where the puck was going. You know, it was it mattered. It was like you say or DiMaggio My father used to talk about it would be almost as if he was moving in that direction before the crack of the bat. And that level of anticipation that where it's going to happen you know was was just a tremendous skill that the grades have. And you know, I got this thing actually you say it's right on my desk. And it was it was from an early and give it to me and said overestimate the when overestimate the when Watson says that it's something larger than you got anticipate a bigger problem. Prepare for an unforeseen hurdle expect things to get complicated, expect traffic to be worse than usual. presume that the repairs will cost more in the end the estimate overestimate the when it really sends it to me it's a love

David Novak 39:45 

that I love that I couldn't agree more. And speaking of anticipation, Jamie I was really anticipating this conversation you know, it's always fun to connect with you and and just want you to know know how much I admire you for everything you've done and how blessed I personally feel to be one of your kids. You've got countless friends, but I, I sure am glad I am one of them. And I want to thank you for being on this show.

Jimmy Dunne 40:15 

But I like you, I honestly, believe you the best interview I've ever seen David, and I appreciate the show, I listen to a lot of the podcasts, I've learned a lot. And I've enjoyed them all. And I love your friendship, and we gotta we gotta we gotta, we got to turn into play in a couple of weeks, and I gotta get my foot ready for me to be too.

David Novak 40:44 

Man that's just such a powerful and emotional conversation with Jimmy Dunn. You know, he really stepped up after 911 and truly demonstrated what leadership is all about. It's just truly incredible how he was able to anticipate the needs of his team and their families in that awful moment. But you know what, we don't have to wait for the difficult moments in order to serve our teams like that. We can do that each and every day. It starts with empathy, putting yourself in someone's shoes so that you can anticipate what they need. Now, if you listen to this podcast regularly, you know, this is the time where I give you a little coaching. And this week as part of your weekly personal development plan. I want you to intentionally anticipate the needs of someone you work with. It could be your whole team or just a collie. Ask yourself, what do they have going on in the next couple of weeks? What hurdles might they be facing in their projects? What resources could they need that they don't even know about? Step out of your own shoes and take a walk in theirs. Once you've had that space to really think about things from their perspective, you're going to come up with some thoughtful ideas to serve them well, which is exactly what great leaders do. So do you want to know how leaders lead? What we learned today is that great leaders anticipate the needs of others. Thanks again for tuning in to another episode of how leaders lead where every Thursday you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world. I make it a point to give you something simple on each episode that you can apply to your business so that you will become the best leader you can be