David Novak 0:04 

Welcome to How leaders lead where every week you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world, I break down the key learnings of the by the end of the episode, you'll have something simple that you can apply as you develop into a better leader. That's what this podcast is all about. Well get ready for an inspiring conversation with my guest today, Lonnie Lee. She's the wife of legendary boxer Muhammad Ali and a powerful leader in her own right. She incorporated built and sold Greatest of All Time, Inc, and also founded the Muhammad Ali Center, which is a nonprofit museum and cultural center right here in my hometown of Louisville, Kentucky, and is devoted to inspiring the world through Muhammad Ali's legacy. Now Lonnie is an extraordinary leader with a big heart and a clear moral compass. And it's easy to see why she and the goat had such a great partnership. And, boy, if you need a jolt of inspiration in your life, this is a conversation for you. It's going to remind you that the best things in life and business often happen when we give without expecting anything in return. Plus, Lani shares some beautiful stories of Muhammad Ali, including the backstory of when he lit the Olympic torch at the 1996 Games in Atlanta, which my wife Wendy and I had the opportunity and honor of seeing. So here's my conversation with my good friend, and soon to be yours. Lonnie Lee.

Lonnie, thanks so much for having this conversation with me today.

Lonnie Ali 1:44 

Well, thank you, David. It's a joy to see you.

David Novak 1:47 

You know, Lonnie, I always like to start out at the beginning. You know, tell us about your upbringing.

Lonnie Ali 1:53 

Well, I was raised here in Louisville, Kentucky, born here, raised here, went to school here. went to Catholic I was raised Catholic, went to Catholic grade school Catholic High School, and stayed here until I went to college. Louisville made a big impression on me, I lived in the suburbs I originally was when I was born and lived in the city till I was about five. And then I moved in the suburbs, and moved into a neighborhood that was young professionals with children, and coincidentally lived across the street from Muhammad. His parents, which was cash is clear at the time, cash, parents and so I had a very colorful upbringing.

Unknown Speaker 2:38 

I bet you did, I

David Novak 2:39 

bet you did. You have a story from your early days that really kind of affected your leadership and your perspective on life. You know,

Lonnie Ali 2:46 

what's interesting, David is I've never really thought of myself as a leader, I have always been taught by my parents to do what needed to be done, to sort of figure that out and to do it to the best of your ability. But um, I had lots of mentors, you know, growing up with my parents, Mohamed, my teachers, but they, I think, saw leadership abilities in me, but I never considered myself a leader per se. I just tried to do the right thing every day. But of course, my parents taught me a lot, you know, they taught me, you know, your word is your bond, they taught me whatever you do do it right the first time because it's going to take more time to go back and do it again. So try to not to be open and kind, be compassionate to people not to judge harshly. They were big supporters of education. They believe education was key to everything. And to aspire to be something, you know, try to be something in life, to give back to be a contributor to this to society, not someone who took

David Novak 4:03 

what did you want to be when you grew up? When you were a kid? Did you have any idea of what you wanted to do?

Lonnie Ali 4:09 

You know what, I always wanted to be a physician. I wanted to be a doctor. I don't know why I think because of helping people. My father had polio. And I grew up, you know, helping him and which was interesting, because I was like his little, this little camp in a way I was always around him, doing things for him taking care of things, you know, he was a great cook. So he'd cook I do the dishes, you know, I clean up but I always wanted to be a physician. And then when I got to college, I realized I didn't want to be a physician after I saw. I went to my first cadaver dissection. I decided to just sort of throw myself into that my freshman year of college just to see because I went to Vandy so I went over to the Vanderbilt hospital, you know, they let me go into the cadaver lab. No, I figured this was not Fulani.

David Novak 5:00 

Vanderbilt is a great school and by the way, my daughter went to Vanderbilt. Why did you pick Vanderbilt?

Lonnie Ali 5:07 

Well, I actually wanted to go to school in New York, but my father wouldn't allow that. It was too far away. And I didn't want to go to school here in Louisville or Kentucky, I wanted to get away and experience some things. So I My sister was at Nashville and in Nashville and my brother in law taught at Vandy. So I applied there, and as well as some other places, but I got in there. So I thought this is great. This is where it was only three hours. And at that time, we had a train that actually went there. But so you don't have that anymore. No. But in fact, that disappeared after my freshman year. But it was it was a very good experience for me.

David Novak 5:46 

Yeah. Tell us about your your first job out of college. What was it like? And what did you learn?

Lonnie Ali 5:52 

Well, my first job was with the state actually, I was a state employment counselor for the state of Kentucky. So it was interesting, because it's sort of put me on the other side of things where I was looking at, at applicants trying to prepare them to interview for possible job openings. So it sort of taught me what an employer would look at. It put me in that other seat. And I mean, it went down as far as body language, how you dressed eye contact, how you know, shaking someone's hand when you come in being direct. Being honest, really giving people the opportunity to see who you are and what you can bring to the table. So I did that for a year. It was a it was a great opportunity. But when I got out of school, I have to tell you, I really wanted to, I went I majored in psychology. So then I was going to become a child psychologist. So I applied to school, but it's really difficult in getting into a program like that. And I didn't know if I get in. And that's why I took this job in the interim. And then as an employment counselor, I came across openings as well. So I decided to apply to Kraft Foods, and I got the job the same day that I was accepted to the University of Illinois, at Chicago Urbana to I mean, Chicago circle to go to graduate school.

David Novak 7:20 

Wow. So what made you at that point in time, say I want really want to go for this craft opportunity? And what an opportunity?

Lonnie Ali 7:28 

Well, well, it was sales, it was basic entry level sales. And an in school, it was really interesting, because I really didn't like business. I was one of these, you know, I was raised Catholic, I was a God saved the world person. I really didn't like, like business at first. And then I decided, You know what, Lana, you got to think long term here. How are you going to feel if you get someone who comes into your office with a child that has been hurt or abused? How are you going to process that? You know, and I know me, I would take it home, I'd be in anguish, I'd probably driving myself crazy, you know, worrying about things. So I said, You know what, this might be a better opportunity for you to try this business. Opportunity with craft as opposed to going to graduate school, because maybe you can do that later. But check this out. So I did plus, you know, given the financial burden as well. So I did I went and interviewed with Kraft and got the position,

David Novak 8:26 

what do you learn selling that you've been able to carry over into the rest of your career?

Lonnie Ali 8:31 

You have to listen to your customer? You really do. And you have to love what you do you have to love what you're selling. And if you don't I suggest you go get another job. It's true. If you cannot sell what you mean, if you cannot believe in what you're selling, you're not going to be able to sell it.

David Novak 8:48 

Yeah. You know, you said your parents were really passionate about you getting educated properly went to Vanderbilt. And then, you know, after working at Kraft, you decided to go get your MBA at UCLA. Right? And I think it was in 1986. You know, why did you decide to get your MBA,

Lonnie Ali 9:04 

well working with Kraft opened my eyes to the world of business because it's not a place I had been before and the opportunities that existed. And I was always want to believe that you should get, you know, really fill up that that cache of skills, and I know to get a new to get anywhere in business that you would need an MBA. I mean, what better way to learn in fact, because I did not have business courses in my background, I went out to U of L and got, you know, these preliminary courses, post grad courses so that I could apply. And I thoroughly enjoyed it. I thoroughly enjoyed it. So I went and pursued the MBA.

David Novak 9:40 

Now a 1986 You got your MBA, but it also was the year that you married, mom. That's right, which is that was a big year for you. No question about that.

Unknown Speaker 9:48 

Yeah, you know,

David Novak 9:50 

when did you first meet Mohammed you mentioned you're how old were you and how old was he?

Lonnie Ali 9:56 

I was six. And he had come home to me I'm visit his parents and I remember walking in the house and seeing Muhammad while actually seeing my mother looking out the front door across the street at someone sitting on a porch. And it was Muhammad and I didn't know who he was. And my mother sent lookers caches, Clay. I didn't know who caches Clay was, and he happened to see me in the door, you know, standing there, through the window and sent my brother over to get me because every little boy in the in the neighborhood was there in front of him. And I mean, every little boy, big boy, teenager, every boy in that neighborhood was standing in front of Muhammad. Yeah. And he was just sitting there holding core. Yeah.

David Novak 10:44 

Now I read that when you met him, then you knew that someday you would be married to him?

Lonnie Ali 10:50 

Not then not then. Not that, okay. That's when I was 17. I knew seven and I was just and he wasn't even in town. It was just, but every time he came in town, he'd be in my parents house, like he was in his parents house. You know, Muhammad, was everybody, son, everybody's nephew, everybody's brother, he was just like that. And at 17, I knew that one day I would be married to him, then how did you reconnect with him? It was there was no reconnection, because every time he came in town, I'd see him, you know, if he had he always, mama always made time to support the local community, you know, they'd ask him to come back and come to these little fundraisers, the churches. Now remember, he was supposed to be Muslim, right? But he'd be going to these Christian, fundraisers for Christian churches in the West End, or whatever, for scholarships to go to, to cosmetology school or to go to UFL, he'd always come back and do things for the community. And so some of them I would go to him with, to, you know, for the evening or whatever. And just to see, you take me with him, because he thought it was important that he educated me on, you know, world and whatever. So, you know, I got to know Muhammad pretty well,

David Novak 12:02 

how much older was Muhammad than you?

Lonnie Ali 12:05 

1414 years, 14 years or 18 years?

David Novak 12:09 

You know, obviously, you know, you had this gut instinct when you were 17 years old, that this was going to be the guy for you. You know, are you a really instinctive person that is

Lonnie Ali 12:18 

no what David and I don't mean this to sound weird. But I've always believed in it may come from my Catholic background, that God had me on a path. And this is a this is a truth. I was on a path. And he had it all mapped out of where I was supposed to be and what I was supposed to do. And all I had to do was follow it in my you know, in my head, I knew that's that was, you know, all I had to do. And that has been true all of my life until the day I married him. And it was like he said, Okay, you've graduated, you're on your own. You need to make your own. You need to figure this out on your own now, but up until then, it was like it was all laid out for me.

David Novak 12:57 

Now you were armed, you get married, you're armed with this MBA. And as I understand it, you know, after you got married, you actually took over Muhammad Ali's business affairs. I did, what kind of shape are they in?

Lonnie Ali 13:11 

Well, let's not go there.

Unknown Speaker 13:14 

Let's just say you were needed. Let's just say

Lonnie Ali 13:16 

it's a good thing. I went to business school and got that MBA.

David Novak 13:20 

That's good. Yeah. Well, you're, you know, you're a very creative entrepreneur. And you know, you, you really, you know, you incorporated goat the greatest of all time. Tell us about that story. How'd that come to you?

Lonnie Ali 13:33 

Well, actually, that name was I didn't come up with that name. One of Muhammad's attorneys did. Came up with that name, Ron twill. Greatest of All Time go, which was interesting, because it's also his zodiac sign. Is this he's a Capricorn and that's the Capricorn Yeah, yeah. So it made sense. But anyway, yeah, I sort of just decided things needed to be organized and centralized. And because things were everywhere, you know, people weren't getting, you know, replies, things were falling through the cracks. And so I just decided, you know, what, this needs to come home. This needs to be here with Muhammad, not somewhere else. So that's what I did. And unfortunately, it was a little difficult for him at first. But I think he realized that, you know, I had gotten the degree I was educated. He knew I was solidly behind him, for him to trust me to be able to do this, because he knew he'd known me since I was just like, turning your life over to this little girl. I know. You're gonna his mind. I'm sure he thought. What does she know? She's green. She's never been out there. But he did. And you know, and thank God he did. I mean, Muhammad was one of these great people who knew what he knew and knew what he didn't know. Yeah. So he let somebody do who didn't know step in and help

David Novak 14:50 

him. What did you do with the greatest of all time?

Lonnie Ali 14:53 

Centralized and organized. I brought in people to help you know, one of the things I learned from the great Larry time I was in here in Louisville is surround yourself with people who know more than you do. So I had a group of people that I would call on who were sort of like, my, my spirit, you know, my sounding boards, my consigliere Aires, my advisors who helped me build this company, I will not take credit and say, I did this by myself. I did

David Novak 15:19 

you ended up selling the company, right? We did. Yeah, yeah, for pretty good try.

Lonnie Ali 15:24 

We did, we did you know, and let me tell you, to us, it wasn't all about the licensing either. Because, you know, there was a lot of things Mohammed couldn't do, because he was not able to do physically due to his Parkinson's or his religion, you know, would prevent it. A lot of what that company sold for was the intrinsic value that Muhammad brought to the table, his reputation, you know, it was almost like a gold stamp on something, it was all the charitable work, he had done all the good work he had done out in the world, and sort of had had given this company even more value.

David Novak 16:02 

Well, you found a way to monetize that and do good, you know, which is that's, that's the Win Win of all win wins, you know, right.

Lonnie Ali 16:09 

And him trusting

David Novak 16:10 

me to be able to do that, you know, Lonnie, you're, you're obviously a very accomplished leader in your own right, even if you don't necessarily see yourself that way. But how did you establish your own voice separate of Muhammad, who, who clearly had to be one of the most charismatic persons to ever walk this earth?

Lonnie Ali 16:31 

Interestingly enough, with Parkinson's, your voice, his voice, in particular, became strained. And it was very difficult, it came difficult for him to talk and to project his voice. So I became his voice, I became the one who would speak for Mohammed, on many occasions. And I don't know until now that I really had my, but I would say my own voice, because I always felt I was speaking for him. I think it's just now in these present days, that I feel like I am developing my own voice.

David Novak 17:06 

What is that you? Have you been able to think about what that really is?

Lonnie Ali 17:10 

Well, you know, I spent over 30 years with Muhammad, so it really it's a continuation of his legacy. And because Muhammad understood this small stuff, simple stuff, you know, he said, Don't sweat the small stuff he didn't. And it was, it's the simple message of loving, loving people the way you want to be loved and finding that thread of humanity. So I think that, you know, I believe that I can sell that. I believe that that's a

David Novak 17:40 

product that you can craft, you can sell that right. So

Lonnie Ali 17:44 

if I can sell cheese, I can sell this.

David Novak 17:47 

You know, in addition to that, the handling the daily business, you also traveled with Muhammad is on business and humanitarian, humanitarian initiatives. Tell us a story about a trip that you too, took that had an everlasting impact on your life?

Lonnie Ali 18:06 

Well, you know, like I told you, I was raised knowing Muhammad ever since I was six, I knew he was a celebrity. I knew he was, you know, big time that people, you know, really idolized him. He was a great athlete and all these things. And I'd seen people reacted to Muhammad in here in Louisville, you know, and sometimes in the streets of New York and places. But I'd never seen people react Muhammad overseas. I mean, I knew he was a big deal. But you know, I grew up with him. And we went to Pakistan for something I can't even remember what it was for. And Muhammad didn't travel with bodyguards. Once he retired, Mohammed was fine by himself. We'd never had bodyguards or anything like that. It was just us. We never had an entourage. And we went, we were in Lahore, Pakistan. And I will never forget these people, grown men running after Muhammad. throngs of them not 10 or 15. I'm talking about 7080 90 100 Men like running after him. Like he was almost like he was some profit or some I could not get over it. It was so astounding to be there visually and watching people the way they they, you know, were attracted to him, and they knew him and how they revered him. And it really made me think, you know, I knew Muhammad was special, but then I realized he's even more special than I realized. You know, this man is a gift.

David Novak 19:40 

Yeah, absolutely. How many countries did you visit together? You think?

Lonnie Ali 19:46 

I have no idea I've never kept up with I mean, there's a list somewhere that list in my head but at least I would say at least 2025 countries that we went to together.

David Novak 19:56 

You know, we did a study when I was at yum brands on On a brand people that were recognized in the world, right, Muhammad Ali was by far and away number one. But do you know who number two was?

Lonnie Ali 20:09 

Colonel Sanders, Colonel Sanders? Jonathan, our mutual friend Jonathan Blum shared that with me one time. Yeah,

David Novak 20:16 

it's crazy. You know? Yeah. You know, on a more serious note, you know, when did you first learned that Muhammad had Parkinson's disease.

Lonnie Ali 20:25 

I knew it before I married him that he did. I think even when I was at business school, I knew it. It had not been formally diagnosed, but I knew something was wrong with him. And it became formally diagnosed maybe in 1984. But Muhammad, you know, Muhammad was mind over matter. He didn't see where it interfered with anything. So it didn't, it didn't bother him, It bothered us more than it bothered him. And it was just something to be managed at that point. You know, like diabetes or not to say it wasn't serious. Of course, it was serious. And there wasn't a lot known about it, then. They knew what it was, but they didn't know what caused it and how to cure it. And we sort of grew up with that research. But you know, it presented challenges, yes, but it never was anything that we let define our lives or define him.

David Novak 21:25 

Lonnie, I've always admired you as as a leader, but even more as a person. And one of the things that, you know, I watched and I saw firsthand is, you are absolutely an amazing caregiver. Oh, yeah. And what what advice could you give people who, who end up in a caregiving role?

Lonnie Ali 21:47 

I think I was trained for it. Because like I said, I worked with my dad, who was, had had polio. So I was always there caring. And it was just the way my parents raised me, I think, to care for other people. But it's not a role that we, you know, go aspire to do. It's something we find ourselves having to do. And it's a very rewarding position, I think, because they gave me an opportunity to spend more time with Muhammad, and to enhance his life, the latter part of his years, to make sure he had quality of life. But I think it's important that caregivers keep perspective and not let it overwhelm them, because it can, and to really take care of themselves, because I used to give these these little talks to caregivers about you know, caregiving, and how to take care of yourself and to do this and to do that. And I really thought I was doing that. I really did. And, and I found out since I wasn't, I was doing it, but not really wasn't doing such a good job. So you really do have to make sure that you take care of yourself and that you allow time for you. Because every day is a new normal. When you're caregiving. And you have to learn to adapt, as Muhammad say, roll with the punches and make every day count. Give every give quality of life to that person. You're caring for every day, if you can enter yourself.

David Novak 23:20 

Yeah, yeah, I think it's sort of the magic to the end to the person and to yourself. That is get out of balance there. Absolutely,

Lonnie Ali 23:27 

very quickly.

David Novak 23:29 

You know, one of the most emotional scenes that I've ever witnessed, and thank God I was able to witness this with my, my, my wife, Wendy and daughter, Ashley was we were at the opening ceremony at the Olympics in Atlanta, where Mohammed lit the torch for the whole world to see. Can you tell us an inside story on what that was like for the two of you?

Lonnie Ali 23:53 

Well, that was quite an amazing story. I mean, it was Dick Ebersol at NBC who decided that, you know, Muhammad would be the perfect person to light the cauldron in the 1996 Olympics. And I think Dick contacted us maybe six months ahead of time, and asked Muhammad, would he do it? And of course, it was an honor. Of course he do it. But then when they went down, but it was one of these things you couldn't tell anybody. I mean, the kids didn't know. The only people who actually knew were me. And Muhammad Howard being who was also a friend of Deke deke. And I think a Billy Payne who was the head of the Atlantic Olympics. And they had to go down and do a test or run through before the Olympics, and that's when Muhammad found out that it was really high up. Yeah, but you know, and it was, you know, he had to climb all the steps and be up there on this big tall scaffolding and all this stuff, but it went fine. We never said a word. You just would have forgot about it till it happen. But it was such an amazing man. Oh man, I was in the production booth when he was lighting that cauldron. And to hear that swell when he walked out in that stadium of people gas, and people were crying. And I mean, it was audible. And it was like, Oh my gosh, you know, it was it was it was amazing.

David Novak 25:18 

Yeah, I almost started crying yesterday

Unknown Speaker 25:20 

you talk about it was

Lonnie Ali 25:23 

Bob Costas was doing the commentary then. And and I think Bob start crying. And I remember, President Clinton was there. And he, I think he started crying. It was because and I think it's because people were really excited to see him up there to overcome that Parkinson's and still be there. And actually, he was he had a tremor. So it was on display for all the world to see, but to have the courage to be there. And it sort of reminded them of everything he represented, I think,

David Novak 25:51 

yeah, it was, it was amazing. Speaking of everything that he represented, you co founder and created the Muhammad Ali center here, which was another startup of yours, you know, in many respects, what was Muhammad's and your vision for this wonderful center,

Lonnie Ali 26:09 

it was to continue the legacy. And part of it was because of everything we saw going on in the world, in the 80s. And when we traveled in, in the early 90s, because, well, actually, the 70s, Muhammad was doing some traveling, and I remember some of the stories he would relate to me. But in the 80s, and the 90s. Just hearing, you know, the conflict that was going on in the world, in the Middle East, at that time, it was going on in in Yugoslavia, with Croatia and Bosnia, one of Muhammad's doctors was Serbian. So, you know, we were paying attention to that it just seemed to be chaos everywhere. And then to see kids, when you go to some of these countries of despair, we went to the Sudan, where they didn't have water. I mean, it was it was just amazing how kids just did not have a future. They didn't, they didn't dream of a future they didn't see themselves being growing old, you know, having grandchildren, you know, living a full life. And it was something that Muhammad, I felt we wanted to change. We wanted to give people hope, and, you know, to carry on that legacy of loving people and helping people and finding greatness within, you know, lifting yourself up. So that's how it got started. Yeah,

David Novak 27:27 

that's, you know, tell us about the single biggest hurdle you had to overcome to get the center up and running.

Lonnie Ali 27:33 

Oh, my, the thing was built that well, with any, any organization, its fundraising, so we had to put those sales shoes on again. Well, not only that, it was you know, because Muhammad couldn't do it himself. You know, usually, you know, like Michael J. Fox, thank God when he was putting together the Michael J. Fox Foundation, picked up the phone and call people because Parkinson's affected Michael differently. His voice was still fine. Muhammad couldn't do that. And it was never like Muhammad to do that anyway, because Muhammad never really asked anybody for anything. So it was funny is that people when they were here, and had a wonderful group of people, it was Governor Brown and Larry Townsend and I in a brown bong and, you know, a lot of the people from from the city, actually some of the children from the local sponsoring group, Eleanor Bingham. You know, it's really interesting, but they said Lonnie, give us your Rolodex. That's it my rolodex. They say, Yeah, Mom, it's Rolodex file, if contact. Didn't have a Rolodex like that, they go, What do you mean? I said, Muhammad never collected people's business cards, because he never wanted anything from him. He never was gonna call them back and say, Can you do this for me? He never did that. He didn't have a Rolodex. And they were just floored. They couldn't believe that that's just the way he always lived his life. So that was a challenge, raising money to build the center. And I have to tell you, once again, that was not Lonnie, doing all of that. That was through the generosity and the determination of a lot of people here in Louisville, who believed in the vision and the legacy.

David Novak 29:11 

Now, how are you want to, you know, how are you keeping Muhammad's legacy, you know, alive without his, his his presence?

Lonnie Ali 29:20 

A lot with that's what we knew this center would, would do. And that's why we wanted to put it here prior to Muhammad leaving this earth because we really wanted his handprint on the center. And that is that is this is the physical sort of manifestation of that legacy. But there's also the one that we carry forward throughout the world with our programs. I'm getting ready to start a podcast with a friend to do that. Because even though we know things we have to be reminded, and I think in the world that we live in today, message Muhammad Ali brought to the world of connecting with humanity, one person at a time. Still is He's powerful.

David Novak 30:01 

Tell him can you give people just a quick snapshot of what you'd see if you came to the center?

Lonnie Ali 30:07 

Oh, gosh, you know, we've won several awards here. First of all, you're gonna get the truth, we did not. I mean, putting this center together if you didn't think of a tapestry, a mosaic with all colors of the universe in there, and trying to pick out the most important ones. That's how difficult it was to do this. Because Muhammad's life is so complex, it's so layered. So we tried to pick out the most important things we felt would resonate with people and provide a message. So you're gonna get a true story of his childhood is sort of go starts from his childhood, from the time when he lost his bicycle, or I shouldn't say it was lost, it was stolen, growing up in the West End, and then how it projected him to Joe Martin, who brought him into the gym and how he trained and in that whole idea of training is a program all in itself of dedication and believing in oneself and, and perseverance pushing through, even when times were hard, or people didn't believe in you. And it goes through his life, I mean of achieving Golden Gloves of the Olympics, being thrown on to the world stage. The Vietnam War is resistance to the Vietnam War of being drafted. It goes through, you know, his struggle in his religion, of first becoming, he was born Christian, he was a Baptist, he was raised Baptist here in Louisville, by his mom and then converting to they call it a black Muslims. But it was, I don't know, Elijah Muhammad's group. And then going from there into through Islam, Al Islam, they give that whole progression and how that change. And all of this against the backdrop of the 60s of civil rights movement, Vietnam. And Muhammad wasn't a perfect character. You know, he evolved, you know, at the core, he was always who he was. And he always remained that person. He was always a loving, kind individual. But, you know, Muhammad evolved, he began to see, as we do with we get older, wiser, and he understood things that he probably didn't understand when he was younger, that gave him a better view of the world. That was

David Novak 32:33 

well, Lonnie, I have to tell you, this place is amazing. And I highly recommend everybody, you know, anybody has a chance to come here to see the his life and all the learnings that go along with it, you know, conflict resolution? You know, that's it's it's really tough for leaders, I think it's one of the hardest things people have to do as leaders is to handle conflict. And tell us about the work you're doing in this area at the at the center, and what advice can you offer up? Well, actually,

Lonnie Ali 33:01 

David, right now we're not doing as much conflict resolution, they're more focused on education, gender equality and global citizenship, we have not been able to get to that point of where we do conflict resolution yet because of the resources that are involved getting the expertise and trying to really go deep on these other three first before we move over to that, but I think it's something Muhammad and I have because as I said, we were seeing conflict in the world. It was one of the reasons why we decided we wanted to do this, because the one thing everybody could agree on was Muhammad. I mean, we'd hear stories all the time, and people would tell us of how they grew up in Northern Ireland. And you know, when Muhammad was boxing, everybody stopped biting went into the pubs drank, and watch Muhammad fight together. You know, and people I mean, when Muhammad would go to the Middle East, if he was in Israel, he'd be heralded down the streets of Israel as he was in the West Bank in Palestine. This man could go anywhere and be be like that. I mean, both sides, he always brought people together, peace, the one person people could always agree on. And why is that? It's because the way he treated people, he, you know, the way he approached people, he was always open and kind and loving. And we figured that if there was anybody who could present a neutral ground for people to meet to, to resolve their differences, it was Muhammad, we figured this would be the perfect place to do it. Because when you came in here, instead of the table, you came with equal standing, and everybody hopefully would leave with a wind in their pocket, you know,

David Novak 34:37 

well, obviously Mohammed clearly had the courage to take a stand and you mentioned the things from the Vietnam War to changing his name to embracing a new religion. You know, these are all controversial, particularly back in those days. Very, you know, he seems so competent, you know, at least on the outside, but did he have any struggles internally with the these things or is it just the No,

Lonnie Ali 35:02 

Muhammad? I believe Mama was divinely inspired. Muhammad was extremely confident. And when you think about where he came from, from the west end of Louisville, and times when it was a segregated Louisville with a mother, who did, you know, clean people's houses as father was a sign painter, what aspirations Could he really, you know, Dream off. And he really had this belief and self. And as soon as he walked into that gym, which really, with Joe Martin, which really was just to learn how to fight to beat up, whoever took his bike, that was the initial reason why he went in there, Joe Martin, got them in there. But once he got hooked on that, he wanted immediately to be the best, you know, that he could be to be the heavyweight champion. And Muhammad had always demonstrated that competence in himself, he always believed that he was the best, and he would, he could be the best, but he knew that did not come. You know, by just sitting around, he knew he had to put the work in to make that happen. And he did nobody, you know, poor Angelo, he's not, he's not with us anymore. But Angelo would tell us how he never really had to train Muhammad, you know, after he got him started, Muhammad would be at the gym before he was, you know, Muhammad would run the distance to get there. You know, he, he'd be the last to leave. So he knew he had to work hard to get there. And he did not mind doing it. But he knew he was going to be the best. And he had that real belief in himself, that he could do it. But he always said he did it with God's help, he would always tell you that.

David Novak 36:41 

Yeah, that's great. You know, what, what do you think about athletes and using their stature today, to take very public and political stance,

Lonnie Ali 36:51 

I think it's important, I think it's very important that they do that. Not that we always have to agree, but I think it's important because they have the platform. And it you know, and sometimes they're the ones who can make the change, they can their voices can be heard, whereas the person who's standing watching them, their voices may not be heard. So I think it's important that athletes take stands for Social Change for social good social reform, what you know, as long as it benefits, the whole, you know, not for selfish reason. But for something that benefits the whole,

David Novak 37:25 

you know, you and Mohammed perhaps raised more money for American charities than than any other couple. You know, I won't, I won't, you know, it's things that when I read this many places that there's very few people have done as much for charity in our country, then you as a couple, so hats off to you, what drives your your personal passion for philanthropy.

Lonnie Ali 37:52 

I think just trying to give people a lift, just trying to give them hope, to inspire them to just try to hang on one more day, you know, to see that people care about them. That there is a better tomorrow, there's a better future and the sun will come up tomorrow, you just have to believe that it will and fight as hard as you can. But you know, much as they say, to those that much is given much as expected. And I think it's our duty to do that. It's our duty to be out there helping people, especially if we have the platform and the the means and the resources to do it. I couldn't imagine sitting in a city that really had people who were afflicted who needed help. And Muhammad and I had the means to do so and did nothing. I mean, what meaning is there of life. And you know how I know we did the right thing? Well, Muhammad train me I should say, the reason I know he did the right thing carried me along with him was his funeral. His memorial service. I don't know if he were here them but I mean, just the people who came who never met him who came to pay their respects and to be there, that that that that was it that that set it all, you know,

David Novak 39:12 

yeah. That was an amazing, amazing time in the noisy wanting to watch just to see people from all around the world dignitaries, people flew in so many different vocations. You know, this, you know, what, what really struck you the most about that whole thing

Lonnie Ali 39:33 

that Muhammad was right. He said they come. Muhammad said they come, and that's why he wanted it in an arena. I just said mom, you know, and I've said this story before as a mom and nobody has a funeral or memorial service in an arena. He goes but all my fans will come. And he was right. He knew they would come but but it just goes to show you that what he did every day of his life matter. It mattered to A lot of people and even whether or not they met him, you know, his example mattered. So, you know, that's important, I think for all leaders to know, you what you do really does matter. Right? Your example matters. Yeah, yeah, that's great. Tell us about the origin of this event, Muhammad Ali humanitarian awards event that year in Louisville, how important it is to you, it's always been our hope and desire to pass that torch of Muhammad's off to the other, to the next generation. And to so that they can carry that torch forward. And this is really a combination of that idea. And that thought of celebrating and highlighting people around the world, millennials, people under the age of 30. Who do this, who do this, where they are, who make changes in people's lives and impact in societies and communities that are far beyond what you would believe. I mean, some of the things these people have done are just totally amazing.

David Novak 41:01 

Tell us your favorite story.

Lonnie Ali 41:04 

Well, there was this one young man, Kennedy odd, from Kenya, who wasn't awardees a few years ago. And he came from abject poverty, I mean, probably something we have never, ever experienced or seen here and pulled itself up. And he just had this stuff in him of wanting to help other people and make things better. And to build schools. And he was able to do, it overcame all kinds of odds to do this, all kinds of obstacles to get herself through even the threat of death of hiding, and so that he would not be found, because he would have been murdered. And living in places that we would not live, I mean, dealing with circumstances and environments that we would, you know, shrink from, we wouldn't we wouldn't do it, and have the courage to do this, just so not for himself, but so that he could uplift those people in his village, who lived in his community. And it you know, it just when I see this, and I, and I think those are the people that are the heroes, they're the heroes are everyday heroes, not people like me, because I stand up here, and I can, you know, it's easy to pass, you know, advice or give a check. But these are the people who are on the ground actually doing it. And that's the hardest part, who actually throw themselves into the middle of it, who see a human condition that they think that they can alter or make better and do it. I mean, I mean, they just do it, they transplant themselves from like, America, I love America, let me tell you that I love America, because I've traveled, you know, every time I remember being gone, so long, when I came back, once I kissed the ground, this is the greatest country on Earth, it really is. Because when you go out there and see where how other people live, and the conditions they're under, you will really appreciate what you have here and when people transplant from here and go to places like that, just to make a difference to go to Haiti trying to make water and or get water drinking water for people, things we take for granted, you know, in Sudan trying to dig a well you know, it's it's it's amazing and I have so much respect for these people and it gives me so much hope that these that you know we are going to be okay as a race of people as as the human race because these these these people really care

David Novak 43:45 

and how important do you think it is Lonnie to really recognize people as a leader

Lonnie Ali 43:50 

it's it's extremely important to celebrate them and to give them the support that you know that they deserve and need because otherwise they can't go forward. And I think it's extremely into highlight them so other people are aware and see it because then people can say you don't have to reinvent the wheel. You don't have to go out there and you know say oh I'm gonna start an organization do that because there's so many already out there you know, you could do this final one

David Novak 44:17 

you know, I don't know if you remember this but we had a big celebration for you and Mohammed at the at the yum corporate headquarters I certainly did I actually gave Mohammed one of my young teeth you know the Yemen wars you wrote on it yeah. But that that picture with you guys is my it's my favorite picture. You know, I have it just just just love it but you know, recognition is such a powerful thing. Even a Muhammad Ali like getting the recognition right and he loved me had plenty of it right and

Speaker 1 44:45 

he loved he always loved so you know is

David Novak 44:49 

as you as you go forward in your life now. What do you see as your unfinished business?

Lonnie Ali 44:58 

You know, I really believe The Center and his legacy, you know, people who, you know, when you talk about finding your own voice, well, it may have a different pitch different tone, but the message is going to be the same because I think it's a it's a message for the ages, you know, and from, you know, our political climate here, our social climate here in America and across the world, the things I see, it's so important we are only mama used to say this life is nothing but a mosquitoes wing to eternity, in his true is, in a snap of a finger, this life is over. And the rest of it is eternity. So what are you going to do in that snap of a finger? Are you going to spend it being arguing with people being divisive, you know, being selfish, you're going to try to help people. Uplift, everybody uplift everybody around you if you can. And that was Muhammad's measures to love people without expecting anything in return. That's why he didn't have a Rolodex. He didn't have he didn't expect anything. He just wanted to be open and to love you, because you're God's creation, you're a human being. And I have an appreciation for you, regardless of the baggage you may carry with you, or on you. So I think that message is endless. It's ageless. And I think it's worthy of me spending, you know, the time I have left here spreading it certainly

David Novak 46:24 

is and you know, do you have any special advice, Lonnie, for female women of color who, who wants to take a leadership role? Is there any advice you could give to them?

Lonnie Ali 46:35 

First, forget you're a female of color. And actually forget you're a female. I never thought about, oh, I'm a I'm a female, there's things I can't do. Or there's things that because I'm black, I'm not supposed to be over there. I never I wasn't raised like that. And I don't think like, always expect to belong, think you belong, expect that seat at the table to be yours with your name on it, and put yourself there. But it comes with responsibility. It don't be frivolous with it. Because I think it's important, even though we are women of color, that we become role models, whether we like it or not, we become role models. And we have to set the example.

David Novak 47:16 

I couldn't agree with you more on your perspective, which is which is tremendous. Can you leave us with like three bits of advice you give to all up and coming and aspiring leaders, I know you're a person who started out you're well educated, you start out in counseling, you go to graft, you end ups, you know, licensing goat than creating the Muhammad Ali center, and you and you look back, you know, what would be the best three bits of advice you'd give to aspiring leaders.

Lonnie Ali 47:45 

First, I think you got to, you have to have gratitude. You have to have gratitude for everything you've been given. And everything you haven't been given, you have to be happy, be grateful for the big, small. And be thankful that you know, you've been blessed. I think you have to lead with a moral compass. You have to get up every day thinking that you're going to do the right thing. And be able to translate that to those who you are leading. And to set that example. And, you know, I could go on but I think the other thing is that you have to be inclusive. You have to gather people, you know, be a consensus builder. Bring people in don't think you're the one who knows everything because you're not because even as a leader, we continue to learn as we age as we grow older. As we get more entrenched into our careers. You have to continue to learn new ideas, things evolve. And you have to bring people in to do that. of all persuasions.

David Novak 48:54 

You know, Lonnie, I've learned a lot just by having this podcast with you. And I not only learned a lot I've been inspired. Oh, well, thank you. And I want to thank you so much for taking the time to share your story and thank you so much for everything you're doing in the world today, on your own and also for for continuing Muhammad Ali's legacy. It it truly is inspiring and you are an amazing person. Thank you. You are, are you you know you are the greatest. Thank you.

Well, it's obvious that Lani Ali is one special person. She has so much compassion for the world, and she leads with a grace and generosity that's truly remarkable. You can see why she and Muhammad Ali were such great partners, and why she cares so deeply about inspiring others with his legacy. She has seen firsthand the kind of change in unity we can experience when we treat others with respect and give without expecting anything saying in return. I mean, don't you just love that story about Muhammad Ali having no Rolodex. It just wasn't his style to call someone up and ask for a favor. That's some powerful inspiration we can use to grow as leaders to this week. As part of your weekly personal development plan. I want you to do two things. First, list a few things you're grateful for in your life and work. Then think about one simple way that you can really be generous this week. When we realize how much we have to be thankful for, it's even easier to share with others who really need it. The world needs leaders who can lift others up and give to them a hope for a better future. Look for ways you can be generous without expecting anything in return. And you'll be part of building the better world that Muhammad and Lonnie dreamed about together. So do you want to know how leaders lead what we learned today is the great leaders give without expecting something in return? Thanks again for tuning in to another episode of how leaders lead where every Thursday you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world. I make it a point to give you something simple on each episode that you can apply to your business so that you will become the best leader you can be