David Novak 0:04 

Hey everybody, welcome to how leaders lead where every week you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world, I break down the key learning so that by the end of the episode, you'll have something simple you can apply as you develop into a better leader. That's what this podcast is all about. Now, if you've ever felt underestimated at work, or like the underdog in your industry, boy, are you going to love today's conversation. My guest is windy Clark, the global CEO of Dentsu International and the first female CEO of a big six global advertising agency. Before that she did incredible work as a marketing executive at Coca Cola and 18 T. She's an absolute giant of the advertising world. I mean, she is literally in the Hall of Fame. But despite all our success, Wendy is the absolute master of the underdog mentality is how she stays motivated, both personally and professionally, and how she continues to over deliver at work and outperform the competition. She really is the master of mindset. And she will show you how to lean in to the underdog mentality and use it as fuel to work for you. So here's my conversation with my good friend, and soon to be yours. Windy, Clark.

Windy, it's been a long time since we talked and I really appreciate you taking the time to be with me.

Wendy Clark 1:34 

Thank you, David. It's wonderful to be with you.

David Novak 1:37 

You know, Wendy, I understand that you started out as a receptionist for a 10 person advertising agency in Atlanta, Georgia. Tell us about that experience in what you learn from it.

Wendy Clark 1:50 

Well, it was a great experience, I had gone to college, much like you, with your journalism degree, I had a creative writing degree. And I came out of school convinced I wanted to write advertising. And promptly as as none of your younger listeners will know, printed and mailed resumes to available jobs and none of them came through, which was not surprising, because I didn't really have much work experience. But but one ad agency in Sandy Springs, just outside of Atlanta, had an opening for a receptionist and they called me and said, Would you be interested in interviewing for this. And, you know, in the moment, I just wanted to get my foot in the door. I was convinced if I could get in somewhere I could prove myself. And so I went interviewed, and I took the job as a receptionist. And you know, my job was to make sure that the very charismatic leader who drank tab and had two cats, she would come in and say what do you my cats haven't eaten in a day? Can you go get cat food? I mean, I did. I did all the things that anyone did in an entry level role. But I, I think most importantly, in that experience, the life lesson that I carry with me today is to never be above doing anything. And I have never forgotten that experience. I've never forgotten how people treated me some well, some not so well. But my desire to just get in and prove myself ultimately unlocked plenty of opportunity for me,

David Novak 3:12 

did you ever get to use your creative writing skills?

Wendy Clark 3:14 

I did, because quickly I moved from, you know, being a receptionist to say, Hey, can you help us with this press release? Hey, can you help us with that this ad copy. So I, I did start doing that. That was the point at which though, I realized that my writing skills weren't quite where they needed to be to make it in the big leagues. And I talked about, you know, the on the 10th revision, with red lines through my copy where the only word I had actually created was and that was left in the paragraph, I knew I had to kind of flip to the account management side. So I flipped to a different side. And when

David Novak 3:46 

you and I went through that same basic experience, you know, there's nothing more sobering than looking at a blank sheet of paper, you have to fill it up with an idea. Yes. I also remember in one of our conversations that you told me that you were a shift manager when you were 16 years old, for McDonald's. You know, now what do you learn about leadership and how to lead from that experience?

Wendy Clark 4:08 

Well, I'm a huge fan of McDonald's I've had the privilege now to work on their business as an advertising person and marketer but you know, that formative experience for me was was huge. Again, young age, I went to work there. i The entire reason I went there was because I wanted to buy a car and I had an aunt who had a little bit of money and said anything you save all match, so very incented to save some money and get her matched money to get my first car. And I've sort of went there and progressed through McDonald's and became a shift manager and as a shift manager responsible for everything that happens on that shift. So customer satisfaction and employee insubordination, cash management, I was making bank deposits, I was doing inventory control. And what I realized for that experience was I wouldn't have been able to really define What this thing called business was, but I really liked business. And I thought if this is business, I like this thing called business. And, you know, I've carried it with me forever and to tap that kind of measure of responsibility. A young age was very formative and impressionable. And I think McDonald's does a wonderful job and most of the category if you want it, you can have huge responsibility, a very young age and really learn to wonderful formative skills.

David Novak 5:26 

Yeah, I always feel like the industry is a bit maligned, because I love McDonald's advertising campaign. I don't know if you did it or not where it's your very, your very best first job. That was

Wendy Clark 5:35 

one of our agencies. My former job at was Alma, which was the Hispanic agency and the DDB network. It's a wonderful piece of work. And it's true, it's a very true feeling for I think the number is one in eight or one in nine Americans has worked at McDonald's.

David Novak 5:50 

That's a big number. And now here, you are the CEO of Dentsu Aegis network, how does it feel to accomplish something like that when you start out as a as a, you know, a receptionist, you know, worked as the shift manager, how do you feel today about that accomplishment?

Wendy Clark 6:08 

Well, it's an incredible privilege, I think all of us in roles and responsibilities where 1000s of people look to us for vision and and for their sustained prosperity in their careers. First and foremost, you have to think about the that deep privilege and responsibility you have to all those people, I always say on the other side of the privilege can't get too caught up in that because there's a pressure to there's an immense pressure to run a healthy and performing business. We're a publicly traded company on the Tokyo Stock Exchange. And I never forget that I'm responsible to shareholders to but you know, the way I would characterize my life, I mean, even before, the the receptionist job in the shift manager was raised by a single mother, I don't think that anyone would have thought of the young girl who went to five different schools and five years, would be in a position like this. And I would characterize my life as improbable if you'd ever asked me what it said is highly improbable, that that young girl who was very shy and quite unsure, from divorced parents, and really jumping around schools, changing continents, at the age of 11, I was raised in England and then moved to the US could ever have the ability to be in a role like this. So I'm always grateful, I'm always thankful and ever take it for granted. And I'm quite certain there are other Wendys in our 45,000 associates that I want to reach out to and let them know they to, with hard work, with some focus, and with a lot of luck, and support from wonderful mentors and friends can achieve things that are beyond their wildest dreams.

David Novak 7:45 

Well, you've certainly done that. And you know, before before this job, you know, you, you were the head of Coca Cola marketing, which is the largest, you know, the number one marketing job in the world easily, then you became CEO DDD, meet him, and then, you know, what do you think we need? Just looking back, you know, from your prior jobs? What big leadership traits do you think you picked up that's made you the right person for this job at this point in time?

Wendy Clark 8:13 

Well, I'm sure there's some good ones and some, some not so good ones, I think at the almost age of 50. You know, some of those are pretty well worn in. But perhaps more than anything, I do try to approach the job with empathy, I really do try to approach the job thinking about the people in our, in our, in our midst, who are doing the hard work every day, I have the privilege of doing things like strategy and planning. But I'm not at the coalface of the business. And I never forget that I'm not at the coalface of the business and the people who are, are doing the incredibly hard work. And so I tried to have a lot of humanity a lot of empathy. I mean, certainly certainly during a time, like right now, during the these these very challenging times, it's more important than ever, to be human, to be accessible, to care, to be transparent and open. We actually are doing live q&a days right now, every week, with our teams where the teams can show up, they can ask me absolutely anything. And they can do it anonymously. And I think it's my responsibility to be that accessible, not available, and then to answer very candidly, and there are times, David, when I don't have the answers. I said just this morning on our live q&a. In my 29 years of working, there's not a tab in my playbook that says here's what to do during a pandemic. We as leaders, across all businesses are doing our very best. We're learning in real time. We're adjusting in real time, we're trying to listen and learn in real time, and make those adjustments and pivots that we think are best for our company and that starts with best for our people. But there certainly be things that we don't have the answers for and or quite candidly That will do wrong. And I think it's just that ability to recognize, be empathetic, be open, and and accept when we've done something not so right and make that quick pivot, which will define our leadership and ultimately our success.

David Novak 10:14 

By the way, when you weren't where's your corporate headquarters?

Wendy Clark 10:18 

So Dentsu group is headquartered in Tokyo. Dentsu International, which is the division that I lead is headquartered in London. My office is in New York, and I'm talking to you from Atlanta where my home is, since I worked at Coke for eight years, I never moved my family. So there's a lot of moving parts in that answer.

David Novak 10:36 

What's it like leading a company that has its roots in fount being founded in Japan?

Wendy Clark 10:42 

It's incredible. Thank you for asking. What I keep telling people is I got exactly what I thought I was buying, and much, much more. And what I didn't fully understand about a 120 year old company founded in 1901. The deep roots of a Japanese company how kind and caring the culture is, I've sort of marked it as instinctively generous, this isn't instinctively generous company and has been for decades. It also has a wonderfully long view. So it's very deliberate. It takes its time, assesses and considers and moves with a deliberate nature. The founder of the company in 1901, was a wartime correspondent, he was a journalist like you by training and he wants to keep reporting and so he founded a company I believe he's probably one of the earliest people to believe in ad supported journalism because he founded an advertising a journalism company and the printed business cards on the back of the business card it said prepared to sacrifice for advertising. And so I find such such incredible strength and relevance in the in the roots and the DNA of this company. And I have carried it now for decades and, and I will just be one little notch along the way of what will be another 120 years for Dentsu, it's a phenomenal organization of high integrity and high generosity. And I'm, I'm very glad to be here. One sub note, I actually am taking Japanese so I take Japanese lessons twice a week. Because it just I had some gardening leave in between jobs, I thought Why should acquire a new skill? So I just had my Japanese lesson early today. I think I've mostly apologize to my sensei. I'm butchering the language, but I am trying I'm trying.

David Novak 12:31 

Yeah, well, that means a lot. You know, it's not easy language to learn for sure. You know, and, and when do you change jobs, right in the midst of COVID? You know, what steps have you had to take to establish yourself as a as the new CEO and determine the priorities for your agency in a, in a pandemic? World I mean, this is, you know, it's not like he can go sit down and talk to everybody,

Wendy Clark 12:57 

No, quite the contrary. And in every job that I've ever done, I would have told you, if we were talking to non pandemic times, I was the person who traveled every week of the year, I was on a plane at least twice, usually three to four times a week, pre pandemic, and so to be sat here, in my home now for a month, it's been an extraordinary feeling. It's had a lot of positives in the sense of, you know, different work style and being much more present with my family than I ever was, and learning new skills on how to connect with people. But I definitely miss that ability to visit a market. It's an absolute honor to have global roles at a global role at Coke also, and at DDB to go into people's markets to go into their cultures to be welcomed into their cultures to, to learn about their business to meet with clients. And there's such a privilege eat their food. I mean, that was one of my favorite aspects of the job. And so I missed that terribly. But But the show must go on. And, you know, we are leading this company through a challenging time, no question. And I believe we are doing as good a job as we would do if we were in person, which I think is an interesting thought. The other day, one of my colleagues, small daughters walked in during one of our meetings and I said to him, I still look forward to a time when I get to meet your daughter and he said, I still look forward to a time when I get to meet you. And I had not remembered that I only in the interview process met with just two of the people on the team other than the Dentsu group in Tokyo. So every one of my team members I have 16 direct reports on our exec only two of them I have met in person. So it's an extraordinary thought that actually as we're leading through these unprecedented times are leading a transformation of an accelerated transformation of the company. Doing it with people I've actually never shook hands with never hugged and never looked in their eyes physically is a really remarkable thought but I'm definitely looking forward to when we can,

David Novak 15:02 

you know, Dennis, who obviously has a great heritage, but you know, as I understand it, you kind of are in a bit of a turnaround situation. Is that too too strong a statement to make? Or? And if so, how are you? How are you attacking that?

Wendy Clark 15:17 

Well, I would Yeah, I wouldn't say turnaround, I would say. Unfortunately, like the rest of the industry, we've experienced revenue decline this year. We are in the service business after all, and most, if not all of our clients have been impacted. So therefore, our business has been impacted too. So we're calling it a transformation. I mean, I think one thing I learned from Muhtar Kent Koch was never waste a crisis. And so we are accelerating the transformation of our business that we would like to come out of this pandemic actually leaping forward and have having having had reimagined the business in places that, you know, we will no longer need certain capabilities, we want to accelerate new and emerging capabilities. We know our clients want, Dentsu does what I believe is the most measured study of CMOS that I've I've seen. We every year, it's a longitudinal study, we talked to over 13 160 CMOS this year in 12 countries to understand where we were, this was in June. And so we are using that incisive understanding to inform our strategy and our vision moving forward, the amazing things that came out of that study, just one in 10 CMOS right now are using new strategies through the pandemic, which then suggests that nine and 10 are using exactly the same strategy, they haven't changed anything given the pandemic. And yet that would not reflect the marketplace that we see with the challenges in front of business. So the number one thing they want to understand is consumer behaviors, what behaviors are going to permanently change which will bounce back, and how to make that meaningful progress for their brands and for their companies. And so we are putting ourselves right, in the center of that challenge.

David Novak 16:58 

Now, when you talk about CMOS, you're talking about chief marketing officers, and you are Chief Marketing Officer at Coca Cola Company, and how much do you think that really prepares you to become an outstanding advertising agency executive, because you, you move from the client side to the agency side, and that's a big shift,

Wendy Clark 17:18 

it is a big shift. And to any of our teams will tell you that I slipped right back into my client persona. Often I call myself Kenny client every now and then because I can see it so vividly. Given that I've spent the majority of my career on the client side, when we're, you know, putting together a presentation or putting together work, I can look at it easily, easily through the client size. And and then and then that's not that that's not gonna work. Here's, here's how the client is going to hear that. And so I can't call myself bilingual. I'm not bilingual yet in Japanese, but I am bilingual and agency and client speak. And I think it's been a huge advantage with honestly, as part of my onboarding, I'm talking to about three or four of our clients every week right now. And it's a hugely comfortable place for me to be I, you know, look at them and think, you know, I'm more familiar with sitting in your chair, probably than I am sitting in my own chair. So there's a there's a wonderful again, empathy, and connection of shared experiences that is immediate for us. And I quite like that,

David Novak 18:18 

you know, and in winter, you're the first female executive to hold the top job at any of the big six advertising firms in the world, you know, does that put any additional pressure on you to leave or to even think about it?

Wendy Clark 18:32 

You know, when I was considering taking the role, there's no question I want to live into charting a path for women, I want to do my part, I have two daughters and a son, who have the same genetic makeup, they have the same education, they've gone to the same school, and yet, my daughter's look into a world and see less opportunity and less potential for them. And that feels patently unfair to me, that everything else is the same except their agenda. And right now, my son will have more opportunity and will have more earning power. That just doesn't make sense. So I you know, part of what I think my job is to do is to is to try to even that scale. And so I want to own that responsibility, no question. I believe what Sheryl Sandberg says, which is you can't be what you can't see. And so if my doing this job, helps other women see that they too can do it. I find that important and I and I want to be that person. At the same time. I don't wake up every morning gold rush. I'm a female CEO, so I better you know, it's not top of my mind. I just want to be a good leader for our people. I want to be a good leader for our clients. I want to do want to say that you know, I don't believe anyone gets up in the morning and wants to be mediocre for one you know, I don't think anyone wakes up goes I think I just be average day I like wake up every day and want to have a reason why I went to work and for people to feel that I was present and I help them achieve What they want it to I want our clients feel that people to feel that. So that really doesn't factor back most days into my mind as being a woman.

David Novak 20:07 

You know, when I was CEO of yum brands, you had a Coca Cola marketing and we had a little business with you around the world. And we had you speak more than once to our marketers on the power of social media because you are renowned for being instil are for being a social social media guru, great digital marketer. How did you learn that skill?

Wendy Clark 20:33 

Well, you know, it was an incredible privilege to work at Coca Cola, you called them earlier, one of the best marketers in the world. I can remember when I was working at 18 T, and they called that recruiter called me. And I told them that I wasn't going to interview for the job and went home that night just happened to mention it over dinner to my husband that coca called, but it definitely wasn't going to talk to them. And my husband kind of leaned in and looked at me he's like, so let me get this straight. One of the best marketers in the world called you, and they want you to interview for a role, but you're definitely not going to talk to them. And I was like, yeah, now I just, it's not right for our family. And, you know, I had all the reasons in the world why anyone talks themselves out. And, and, you know, thankfully to my husband, he said, Wendy, I mean, you've worked at that point, you've worked 18 years, you know, this is one of the best marketers, you should go there. And, and coke has what I would call a wheat and chaff operating system, you either can keep up or you can't. And there's a very quick separation. And you know, I never got my MBA. But I think the almost eight years I spent at Coke taught me an awful lot more about what I didn't know, I was around incredibly talented and incredibly good marketers, it was it was, again, it was a privilege to work with them. I hope in some way that I added something to what we were doing while we were there. But they were, you can't help but learn. You can't help but be good. Coke demands it and it requires it. And if you're if you can't, if you're unwilling to do the work and keep up then you just kind of get left with the with the chat.

David Novak 22:08 

Well, you didn't just learn I mean, you were the best at it at any company ever. You were you were the guru. Really literally you were known for knowing more about social media and digital than anybody else that we knew of anyway. And you know, what do you think a leader needs to know about social and digital today?

Wendy Clark 22:28 

Well, I think I'd probably just expound on that site and say, you have to know your customer, you have to know your consumer. And that means you have to know their habits. You have to know their needs, their wants their mindsets. And, you know, for Coca Cola, their, their lifeblood, their livelihood, required us to recruit the next generation of teenage drinkers every year, and years where the marketing teams had lost that focus, you could follow the lifecycle of that drinker never quite drinking as much as the the recruiters that that generation or that cohort had that had been recruited. So we have a very deep and specific focus on teenage recruitment. And so if you're about recruiting the next 15 or 16 year old, you had to know digital, you had to know gaming, you have to know social media, I mean, you had to know and understand your consumer your target, so that you put your brand and by the way, a 130 year old brand that hadn't changed in 130 years at the center of their universe, how do you do that if you've got an immovable product where there was no chance that they ingredient, you know, that was a sacrilege to say that you're gonna change the formula of coke, right? Someone tried that, and the ad didn't work out. So you're not going to change the formula, the product, you're not going to change the brand, the look the feel of the brand. So the only thing you could do was change everything around the brand. And that meant you had to deeply put it into in an authentic way into social media into gaming into experiences. We went into eSports I mean, everything that teenagers were doing, we were there. As marketer, you had to know it.

David Novak 24:13 

What would you think would be your biggest marketing success? You had Coca Cola? And tell us a story about it?

Wendy Clark 24:20 

Well, to be clear, again, as I said earlier, you know, working with these incredibly talented teams and incredibly talented agencies was a privilege. So let me be clear that I had, you know, perhaps a role in finding the funding for something and helping Shepherd things through approvals, but in no way did. I create it, but our teams were were brilliant. I think the point piece of work that point to the most that I'm incredibly proud of to this day, was a piece of work called the happiness machine. And it was an idea that came from Leo Burnett in Sydney at the time, and they came in through our Central team and then we worked very closely with our teams in India and Pakistan. And what their happiness machine did was use technology where people could see each other we had a Coke machine, but they could see each other on either side of the machine. So it was it had a camera, and then it had a screen. And we united people who had been, you know, separated for a number of years decades in Pakistan and India, through our Coke machines. And this was right on strategy because the strategy for Coke is that a coke is best shared. A Coke is around happiness and togetherness. And so you would see we videoed them, you know, people in a mall walking up to this sort of strange machine and touching and it would, it would give you directions like trace a heart, you know, make a heart with your finger or put your hand on the screen. But it was doing it in the other country too. And so you saw two people who'd never met before tracing a heart together on a screen, or putting a hand together. And if they did it, then they got a coke. And so it created an audience because then you did something to them more and more people in these, you know, in these markets or in these malls, we're doing this. And it I still to this day, it's on YouTube, you can Google it, I get choked up watching it, that humanity of it was incredible. Now, in order to pull that off, we did have to take the idea to Muhtar Kent, because you can't suddenly start to put two conflicted countries together as a brand and not let your CEO know that you're thinking about doing something. And you know, again, lessons in leadership of people all around me Muhtar looked at it and said, Give that to me on a flash drive, because I'm going to send it to Secretary Kerry, John Kerry, who's the Secretary of State at the time, and show him the role that private companies can play in bringing the globe and bringing society together. And you know that coke took its role very seriously, and things like that. And we pulled off that idea. And I to this day, I think it's a wonderful example of, you know, doing well by doing good and the role and the importance of companies doing more than just selling a product but making the world better.

David Novak 26:59 

I love that story. That's fantastic. And you know, all the while you were Coke, you had a major competitor with Pepsi. what did that teach you on how to look at competition? And what do you tell your clients today about competition and how to how to deal with it?

Wendy Clark 27:16 

Well, I am a competitive person by nature data that probably won't surprise you. I mean, the best thing people could do is underestimate me. So you know if, you know, when when Pepsi would make those moves, it just lit the fires for me and for our teams. So I think it's, first of all, I think it's good to have a competitor, I think it makes you better. I think, you know, Pepsi, we're an exceptionally well run company with brilliant marketers of their own. And we could never sleep, you know, you could never rest back go, well, that's got the share game one. So we'll just sit back here. I mean, you always always had to be on your toes with a great competitor. So I think number one, competitors make you better. Number two, at the moments where you don't do well, you'll know it very quickly, because they're gonna rush into that gap and make it hurt. So it reminds you to stay at the top of your game. At the time that I was leading market in North America, Brad jakeman was leading marketing at Pepsi globally. And he and I were friends through the industry. And I think if you have him on here with me, we were both saying we're friends to this day, we made each other better. We you know, we define each other to out market one another and it makes it fun. But we were also very different companies and one of the lessons that I would always continually remind our teams is you can be a worse them are better you we the minute we stopped following our own strategy and we get distracted by Pepsi's and try and be Pepsi we'd only ever be a second best Pepsi. We could be a better coke though. And that principle not only holds for brands and companies it holds for individuals, I use it as a leader I can I can look at you and go Gosh, David is so incredible, but I'll only be a second best you I can be a better Wendy and so I think just always that notion of being the best possible you you can be I think is really important.

David Novak 29:06 

I love that worse than better. You that is that is really good. You know, and, and Wendy, I was so impressed with you. I hope you remember this. But I actually I flew to Atlanta to recruit you to be one of the heads of our major brands pizza at Taco Bell or KFC? I didn't care. I wanted to get you in at one. Okay. And I can't believe it. You turn me down. Why don't you do that?

Wendy Clark 29:33 

Well, we had a lovely lunch. I think it was at the Four Seasons. Remember I remember it vividly and that's where I remember that your wife's name is Wendy from from our lunch. I you know I think it wasn't the sometimes you just have to go on instinct of what was the right time and I was not quite finished with what I wanted to do coke and I felt like I had more to learn. I think where I have always known when I needed to leave something was when I Is into sort of muscle memory. And I, when I get into muscle memory, my focus isn't as good. I start getting distracted. And so I need sort of new things. And there is still new frontier to understand it code. But the minute I got to okay, you know, now I'm into muscle memory, then I know I need to move on. I wasn't quite at that point when we talked, but I was highly, highly flattered. Highly. Thank you.

David Novak 30:24 

That was a tough loss, because I really wanted to get to, you know, when you think about it, and you think about leadership, Wendy, how does your marketing background influence your leadership style? Do you apply any marketing techniques to leading people?

Wendy Clark 30:41 

Well, it's a great question. I definitely do. And it goes back to one of the earlier answers. I often get asked this as as a female, and I think it probably applies to both men and women. But people will ask me, you know, because still getting still typically often I am the only woman in a in a leadership setting. In a very senior leadership setting, I can be one of a couple. But we're certainly not at 5050. And at the question I will invariably get asked is how do you make sure you're heard? How do you make sure that you cut through? And do you adjust your style to be heard? And I think women particularly are quite surprised when I answer yes, I do. Because they go out, then you're not your true self, you're not your authentic self, if you have to adjust. And I say no, not at all. This is marketing, marketing, what we do as marketers is we understand an audience, we create a message that will compel that audience to take a certain action that will create a certain outcome for a brand and a company. That's what marketing is, well, I can apply that quite simply to that boardroom, I have an audience, I want them to hear my message so that they take an action that creates the outcome that I want, it's exactly the same thing. Therefore, it's on me to make sure the audience hears me, it's not on my audience to make sure they hear me that's that's not the way it works. And so I'm quite comfortable. And in fact, desiring to assess and understand the audience. I'm talking to understand what their objections might be their their habits, their needs, their wants, you know, do they have short attention spans? Or do they need a lot of detail? I mean, it can be on one ended spectrum, the other end, understand your audience, adjust how you deliver so that your audience can best receive your message and therefore get the outcome that you want? I don't find that, you know, somehow debilitating or limiting or debilitating? I don't know, at all, I find that absolutely empowering. I think that I'm actually the smarter person in that moment that will take the steps to do that. So marketing absolutely informs my way of leading. And it's, I actually find them quite interchangeable. I will always call Yes, I'm a CEO, but I will always call myself a marketer.

David Novak 32:50 

You know, it's really funny, I wrote a book called taking people with you is all based on having marketing insights into people to figure out how to get him on board move forward. So I couldn't agree with you more, you know, you know, agencies are supposed to bring their clients big ideas, you know, so what kind of culture are you trying to create, to cultivate a big idea environment? And, and how can you even do that in a virtual world that you're in right now? Right,

Wendy Clark 33:16 

David? You're walking down today with me? Yeah, so yes, we are paid for our ideas. And the best way I know how to incent people to bring their best thinking to work is actually to invite them to be their full selves at work. So that starts with the culture first and foremost that we have a culture that welcomes people to our cross our threshold, even if that's a virtual threshold threshold, every day and be exactly who they are. We don't want conformists, we don't want homogeneity. We want you with all your points, all of your idiosyncrasies, all of the specialness, that is you and by the way, that obviously extends into full diversity and inclusion. And so number one, it's that the people we hire are hired to be their authentic selves, and they are welcomed into our culture that way, when you do that, people have a stability and a security in your environment that they can truly unlock, and bring their best thinking, they're not thinking about, Oh, well, you know, I should talk about, you know, this cultural view, or, you know, my religion or my sexual orientation or something, it all is welcome. And so then, then you can move into kind of bringing all your best thinking. So, so that's sort of one thought. The other is, what we're trying to do a lot is sort of teach what great work looks like. So we're really bringing the work to the forefront of all of our gatherings to say, and here's another piece of good work. So here's the strategy. Here's the work, here's why it worked. Here's the results. And really continually use our own work. You know, the metaphor the dogs eating the dog food, really use our own work, too. set the expectation to set the bar and to teach what good looks like. And, and have sort of radical collaboration across our organization so that we become a constant teaching and learning environment I often referenced that I am, I will always be learning always, always be learning, all of us have to. So I think if we can give the security and foundation of being welcoming fully to people, and then really have a sort of notion of setting and teaching, setting the benchmark, setting the bar sharing and learning together. And then of course, ultimately working with wonderful clients who give us these incredible briefs, and trust us with their brands and live into the responsibility of serving them well, and, and being, you know, students of their brands and their companies, all of that coalesces to really unlocking great ideas that that move business and create results.

David Novak 35:53 

So when do you have to evaluate ideas all the time, you're looking at him every day, you know, for your clients? You know? So what process do you go through? Or what do you ask yourself? To really identify a really great idea, big idea, you know, because our listeners, you know, they, they're, they've got evaluate ideas all the time, what what can you tell them that you do that might help them? Well,

Wendy Clark 36:19 

first and foremost, I always want to see the strategy, because evaluating work or any sort of idea or execution without understanding what the intention was, doesn't make any sense. I can see brilliant ideas all day long. But if they're not trying, they're not addressing what the need of a company or brand is, then it doesn't matter, it really doesn't matter. So number one is, let me see the strategy and what we've been asked to achieve and what the outcome has to be what is the the outcome and performance success look like? So number one, so I've got that programmed in my mind when I'm looking at an any idea, I know what it's supposed to do. So number one is it cannot achieve what we've been asked to do is the number one priority of the work. Number two, I look at it through a lens of is does it have some sort of aspect? Where is it useful? Interesting, shareworthy compelling, like your work has to make you feel something like we're in a business of moving people and people are moved by emotions. And so I want some sort of feeling when I look at work. And by the way, that doesn't always have to be happy or sad or emotional. Just like do it. Am I compelled by it? Do I want to Oh, gosh, I want to share it share that on my social networks? You know, I want someone to see it. Does it have a purpose and utility? Gosh, am I smarter? Because I looked at that. And now I understand something I didn't and there's a utilitarian purpose? There's, you go very quickly through is it does is it just like wallpaper and you just put it in the pile of the 5000 brand impacts that that us humans have every day. So US consumers see over 5000 brands every day. So it's either going to go in that pile? Or I'm going to feel something that will make me remember it. So that's the second thing. And then the final thing I think is, you know where you want to be is Is this something that only this brand can do? Can any other brand put their name on the end of this idea? Or is this really so discrete to that strategy, and this brand and this moment that this is people will remember and know that's associated with that brand. So those are sort of the three things I'm going through when I'm looking at ideas and thinking about whether they work.

David Novak 38:27 

And Woody, I know you talk about the importance of brands and companies having a challenger mindset. What do you mean by that?

Wendy Clark 38:37 

Well, I think the there's a great book written by Adam Morgan, who is a longtime planner in the advertising business, and it's called, I think he's going to not forgive me now. I think Scott eating the big fish. I was gonna say eating the giant fish. I think it's called eating the big fish. And it's all around challenger branding. And even when I was at AT and T when we were we were the big fish, we always have to take the challenge or mindset because I think if you take the challenge of mindset you care, you always think of yourself as David going up against Goliath, right? And you try harder. You don't sit back on your laurels. You don't think I've got this done. And then Pepsi comes along and eat your lunch. So I think the challenge of mindset just keeps you hungry. It keeps you focused, it never lets you rest. It drives innovation, it drives ingenuity that drives excitement. And and frankly, those are the sort of the attributes of people you want on your team that you weren't working for. It doesn't matter that your company is 120 years old. 130 years old, you are the steward of that brand in that moment. You have a responsibility to leave it better than you found it and you can't rest on past success. You know, the great axiom that I'll say is like today's headlines tomorrow are just yesterday's news. No one cares.

David Novak 39:53 

You're right about that. In business, we all have to motivate creative people at one time. or another to be successful? You know, what have you learned about how to motivate the creative person? And there is a difference, you know, some of it, some people are more right brained than others or left brains. But you know, you got to deal with, you know, creative people, a lot of people would call the times prima donnas. You know, I'm not saying saying that's the case. But what I'm saying is, is that how do you how do you use your empathy to get into the heads of the creative mind?

Wendy Clark 40:29 

Well, it's a, it's a wonderful question. And if people could see our podcast, they'd see my huge smile, while you're asking me that my husband a few months ago, said, Honey, you've made a career out of working well, with really creative people like and I do think that there has been a little bit of my advantage is number one, I simply love the creative process. And I come at it from a vantage of perhaps peanut, I'm not a failed writer, but I wasn't good enough to be a writer, but I wanted to be so I'm, maybe there's a little bit of me that sort of the frustrated, creative inside there. But I honor and I respect what the creative mindset can do. And I believe that creativity moves business. So I truly feel my role is to help make sure all that genius gets into the world. And to your point, a lot of times creatives can be so deeply into the creative product or into the art form that a lot of times, it doesn't get communicated right or positioned. Right. And that I think, has really been a lot of the story of my career is being able to be right beside deeply creative people and help them unlock how to get their ideas into the world into business into branding. And I, I enjoy it, I love it. I don't think the world would be as good as it is without creativity. So I feel like it's really meaningful and important work. But I sort of think I know my role in the process. And I've got a little niche there that I that I just love and I I recently got to see my former creative partner from DDB. And I just didn't want to let him go, I just come to him. I just gave him the biggest hug. And you know, just that, that that partnership, it's sort of the yin to my Yang. I just it unlocked something in me that I think makes me better at what I do. And I hope that I do the same for them.

David Novak 42:30 

You know, where do you mentioned this a little bit earlier about? You mentioned that some you know, being underestimated, you know, and you're obviously very confident you've had a great track record. But has there ever been a time in your career where you look back? And you were felt like you were really underestimated? And if so, how do you handle it?

Wendy Clark 42:49 

Well, the truth is, I feel underestimated a lot of the time. And maybe that's uh, you know, I think we talked about impostor syndrome a lot. And I, I'm very quick to say, I think no matter if you've been working five years or 29 years, like me, that voice inside of your head is always there. I think the benefit of age and experience is you can control the voice a little bit more, and you know when to listen to it and when not to. But underestimation. For me, it's a very powerful tool. And I actually talked about a lot. So one of the talks I gave at Ken and, and a couple other places was called belief bravery and being underestimated. And I would say those are sort of the underpinnings to how I would color my journey. I believe belief is the most powerful lever in business, I try to create belief with our team's belief in our vision, belief in our potential and what's possible. And certainly in the agency side, belief in the potential of our clients brands. Bravery means you have to put yourself out there, you have to be willing to take those bets, they need to be informed bets. But you know, the victory doesn't get the spoils without being brave. And so there's, there's a certain measure of bravery if you're going to put some content in the world between India and Pakistan, that is required. So it's particularly in marketing, and then being underestimated is, is not allowing yourself to get frustrated by being underestimated, but actually thinking about that as fuel in your tank. So in any moment in my career, when people have underestimated me and I honestly, it's happened dozens of times so many times, I couldn't really even probably tell you when it hasn't happened, I think, you know, I felt that it every step of my career. But when people do underestimate me, I just kind of clock it away. So I go, Okay, I see, you know, when I joined, I mean, I can tell you plainly when I joined Coke, the sort of rumor in the in the hallways was Well, Joe Tripodi needed a female direct report there were no women on his team and so the I got the job because I was a woman I heard it I heard the whispers I understood it and I just kind of just stacked that away. For the moment. I need it and I thought, because when people underestimate you, you thought the bar was was high up here, but when they underestimate you what they're actually The same as she's not. So we're going to put the bar down here because she's not going to actually be able to do it. So they lower expectations for you. And then you sort of crush it, right? Because they've got these lowered expectations. And then you're like, Alright, bring it. And, you know, this sort of hooks right into my competitive gene, because I will I'll, you know, I'll outwork all out anything, anyone, you know, you underestimate me. So say you want to skip in contest all out, skip you like I like we will go to the mat. So underestimation, I think can be very powerful. If you just get it in the right place in your brain and don't buy into it, and don't let it frustrate you, but let it fuel you. It can be incredibly powerful.

David Novak 45:38 

I think you've got a full tank there. That's really day, you know? And, you know, you've also said that you don't believe in work life balance? That's a pretty strong statement. What do you mean by that?

Wendy Clark 45:50 

Well, again, as a woman, for forever, people have told me Well, you know, you just need more in the in the times where, you know, things have felt completely out of kilter. And I felt like I wasn't doing a good job at home, or a good job at work. And as I mentioned, I've got three children. You know, I would go to my bosses at the time and say, and they think, Well, you just need more balance in your life. And I think to myself, that's just such crap. I mean, it's just impossible to do the job that I think the way it should be done, be as present as I need to as a wife and as a mother. And as a daughter. And as a friend. I mean, keep going and going as a community volunteer mean that people's lives have all this dimension that you want to do. And so what I talked about, well, it might feel like a slight spin on words, I truly mean it, is that it's not about work life balance, it's about work life integration. And you've got to integrate your life in a way that works for you. For instance, I now work for a Japanese company asked me what time my first meeting was this morning, had to be 5am to 5am, any given day of the week at 6am. But it was a particular doozy this morning is 5am. Which means now that it's almost five, I've been working for 12 hours. So in a typical day like this, if I have a window in the middle of the day, where I have an hour, I will go and work out from two to three, because I've been going since five. Now, you know, in a regular workday, say, well, from two to three, you might need to be available well, from five, if I'm available from 5am to 6am, then I'm going to do my workout when I might have done it in the morning. And this is what I mean by work life integration. You've got to integrate the peace parts of your life in a way that works for you. And only you My life isn't like your life. But it when someone says balance, this creates this, this ridiculous expectation of this sort of tug of war. And I was unwilling to put the family I love against the job I love and just kind of duke it out. So you finally splice your life and integrate the aspects of your life that you need. And the most important lesson I learned in all of that is what people most want from me, whether I'm at work, whether I'm with my children, with my mother, with my husband, what with my friends, what people most want from you in any given moment is your attention. They want your focus, and they want your undivided attention. And what these things do these phones do is break our attention. Because what you find yourself doing is, you know, yeah, yes, I'm listening to you, honey, tell me about your day at school, and you've got this phone in your hand and you're looking down and you're going and that's that doesn't count. So finally, splicing the integration of your life, if it means, you know, having dinner with my family, and then getting back onto a call, but doing that in a finely spliced way, where everyone has my attention in the moment they need it. That is life integration. And that's delivering what people most want from me. And by the way, well, I must want from my own life to be with those people in the moment and be really present.

David Novak 48:42 

That's great. You know, you talked about bravery a little bit earlier in, I follow you on Twitter, and you're an unabashed Democrat. You know, now, now most leaders shy away from being so public with their political views. In fact, I've seen very few leaders really come out like you've come out and you're in a business where you got to appeal to clients. And you know, and this is, you know, a hotbed of, you know, action and divisiveness, particularly today. Yes. Why do you why do you break that trend of others and have you ever had a backfire on you?

Wendy Clark 49:21 

Well, it's a very fair question and it's one that I've been that I do think about, because I you know, I understand that there will be people of clients of ours that will have different political persuasion. But the one thing that I know to be true and what I would advise all of our 45,000 people and anyone listening is you've got to be true to yourself. I'm better I you know back to a worse them are better me I'm better when I can be the full me and part of being the full me is that I am a Democrat. That doesn't believe that I would never, you know, be a divisive person. I don't believe Given the division that's out there today, and I believe in cross party affiliation and working to joint outcomes, but I am a Democrat and to to obscure that and not allow that to come forward would be me not being honest with myself, and therefore me not being the best me. I think it's also been widely understood that I did take a sabbatical from Koch at one point and work on Hillary Clinton's campaign. So it's sort of widely known, it'd be hard for me to obscure my background, given that I'm in WikiLeaks and other things. So you know, I think I own that, and at what I would always preach, to my children, and to anyone else, is that I think the prosperity of the country will come when the parties work together. I don't believe in the division and I would never espouse the division, but I do support a Democratic ticket.

David Novak 50:56 

Oh, that's great. You know, and, you know, this has been so much fun when he catches up with you and I like to have a little bit more fun with you with a little lightning round lightning round guy was waiting for it. What three words best describe you?

Wendy Clark 51:09 

Ah, mom, marketer, relentless optimist.

David Novak 51:13 

What's your favorite color? And why?

Wendy Clark 51:16 

I suppose it's black. Because it's easy for someone someone said to me, I see that you're wearing black today, which was sort of a joke of when do I not wear black? But I don't know. I think it's easy. I like it. But that's not because I'm a morbid person.

David Novak 51:32 

What's your biggest pet peeve?

Wendy Clark 51:35 

entitlement. I do not like entitled people.

David Novak 51:39 

If you could be one person for a day. Who would it be? And why? Oh,

Wendy Clark 51:44 

goodness gracious. Can it be a it's someone who's passed away?

David Novak 51:49 

anybody you want?

Wendy Clark 51:51 

I would say Gandhi.

David Novak 51:54 

And why?

Wendy Clark 51:54 

Ah, because I mean, he I would just to be in his body and his mindset for a day would have been, I think he was one of the most epic and amazing humans to ever walk the planet, it would be a privilege.

David Novak 52:08 

What's something about you that few people would know, when

Wendy Clark 52:12 

I have different color eyes? I have a green eye and a blue eye. Okay, so your green, the green eye gets really green when I'm angry?

David Novak 52:22 

Do you have any hidden talents?

Wendy Clark 52:24 

Well, I'm hoping that one day will be Japanese. But right now. Now I don't think I have any, any hidden talents not to not get to those No, no hobbies. Really.

David Novak 52:35 

Number one skill is a leader, a leader has to have number one soft skill.

Wendy Clark 52:43 

Got to pick one. I've already said empathy. So I'm gonna book that. And then the rest of the thing I would say. I think energy is probably the number one thing that I that I bring,

David Novak 52:58 

you know, in, and the you talked about growing earlier and learning and you know, what, how are you trying to grow yourself as a leader today? And what do you do to stay on top of your own game?

Wendy Clark 53:11 

You know, I think the My mom always used to say use your mouth and ears and the proportion that they're given to you. I really try to listen more than I speak. And, you know, especially I think in these very senior roles, there's an expectation that you do speak and goodness knows I've got a gift for Gab, so I can you know, loquacious is not a word I'm unfamiliar with. But I really, really try to listen, and especially marketing, you know, is is, is changing to the points we were talking about about coke earlier. The marketing that I knew that I cut my teeth on is very different from the marketing of today. So I have a lot of learning to do constantly with our teams, and making sure I'm at the forefront of understanding what marketing looks like so that we're leading this company correctly. So listening. And I think even just the personality and the willingness from a mental state to say you don't have all the answers and to say you need to constantly learn, I think in and of itself, helps make sure that you do

David Novak 54:11 

you talked about the importance of driving authenticity, and earlier on and I want to close by asking this one question, you know, when you look at the topic of diversity and inclusion, what would be the the single biggest takeaway you've had, that you think that if you can drive it in your company, it'll do the most to drives social justice, the most the drive the belief that everybody can perform and grow at equal levels? You know, what, what, what have you learned?

Wendy Clark 54:47 

Well, I've learned so much. I think, number one, the thing I always want to remind us of is, too often diversity inclusion gets labeled as the right thing to do. And I think that's a lazy explanation. Diversity Inclusion is good for business in every single study that is undertaken on diversity of boards of leadership teams of working teams, those teams outperform their non diverse counterparts. And so I like to remind us that we're, yes, it's the right thing to do. But principally, this is a very good business decision, like this is the right thing to do for the business, not just for humanity. So I think this gets kind of wrapped up in this very soft space. And this is a hard core business decision that anyone who's not making this is setting their business backwards. So I think, you know, framing it that way, number one, and then number two, you know, I, that the empathy of wanting to understand and truly, you know, listening to the lived experiences of our people who are, you know, from various backgrounds have, you know, various dimensions of of their lives that are diverse, by the definition that we might use is super important. And so we had a leadership team meeting at my second week on the job. I wore a t shirt that was the Dentsu logo in the LGBT rainbow. And I just can't tell you how many people sent me comments that said, I felt seen that our CEO would wear a rainbow Dentsu t shirt means that you see me and that you want me to be here. And I think we have to remember as leaders, we have a responsibility to show people that they matter that we see them, that this is a place for them. And even whether my sexual orientation is the same as theirs or not, does not matter. This is about making sure they know that they are welcome. And I see them fully and deeply and I want them to be in our company.

David Novak 56:51 

Well, when he I knew I was going to have a blast talking to you today. And it's it's exceeded my high expectations. And I want to thank you so much for taking the time to be with me and share your I mean, I think really, really great insights

Wendy Clark 57:07 

are Thank you, David, thank you for having me. It's been a great hour of my day with you.

David Novak 57:20 

I really love catching up with Wendy. She's such a dynamo. So insightful, so tenacious, so full of energy, but she's also empathetic, and she brings her whole self and her whole heart to work. It's such a winning combination. Despite all that people sometimes have underestimated her in the past. But instead of letting that doubt grow or giving into the impostor syndrome, Wendy has made the mental shift to use it as fuel, and she takes the opportunity to outperform people's low expectations. So let me take that insight and offer you some coaching to apply it to your life as a leader. This week as part of your weekly personal development plan. I want you to think about what fuels your tank as a leader. What gives you belief in tough moments? What sources of motivation can you surround yourself with? For windy it's been underestimated or seen herself as the underdog for you? It might be something completely different, like hearing success stories from your clients or studying your competitors work. Know what motivates you so that you can intentionally surround yourself with that fuel. It's worked great for Wendy and I know it can work great for you as well. So do you want to know how leaders lead? What we learned today is that many great leaders embrace an underdog mindset. Thanks again for tuning in to another episode of how leaders lead where every Thursday you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world. I make it a point to give you something simple on each episode that you can apply to your business so that you will become the best leader you can be