David Novak 0:04 

Welcome to our leaders lead where every week you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world, I break down the key learnings so that by the end of the episode, you'll have something simple you can apply as you develop into a better leader. That's what this podcast is all about. Today's guest is Mickey Drexler, the legendary king of retail, and former CEO of the gap J. Crew and Banana Republic. And he really put all these brands on the map. These days, he and his son have teamed up to build a new clothing brand called Alex mil. Now, believe me, Mickey is a hard charging guy with plenty of conviction. And when you listen to him, it hits you just how compelling it is when a leader has a unique vision and really believes in it. And the thing is, visionaries like Mickey usually don't reach the heights they do unless they're willing to break some rules along the way. You're going to be so inspired by all the stories he tells a times he had to go against the grain in order to see his vision through, including how I helped Steve Jobs shape the timeless, clean aesthetic of the very first Apple Store. If you're a rule breaker yourself, you're going to love this. And if you're not, you may just want to become one after you listen. So here's my conversation with my good friend and soon to be yours, Mickey Drexler.

Mickey Drexler 1:31 

Mickey, our

David Novak 1:32 

friend, Bobby Brown, the beauty guru, she introduced us and we set up a lunch a few weeks ago. And I have to tell you, I've admired you so much from afar that after that lunch, I felt like I'd known you for years. It was so much fun. I've really been looking forward to having this conversation. So thanks for taking the time to chat with me.

Mickey Drexler 1:52 

Well, David, I'm excited. And it was great to meet you. And here we are.

David Novak 1:57 

Okay, you know, I can't really, you know, I just can't wait to dig into how you lead and how you think. But first, tell us what you're up to these days valance mill?

Mickey Drexler 2:07 

Well, when I left J Crew, three years ago, I was a little bored. And I joined my son Alex, who started the company six or seven years ago, with a designer from my old company who, who had resigned for a number of reasons, from J Crew. And when he resigned, I said, I'm getting together with Alex and him. And we're going to have some we're going to try to build a company. So that's what I'm up to. It's a tiny company. And I'm not used to such tiny, but it's very small. And it's called the Alex Mille and, and it's men's, and we ended women's. And it's it's kind of fun most of the time, but you don't have that big bank. Behind you have you know, it was the Bank of gap, the Bank of have J Crew but I'm that we're trying to build a company

David Novak 3:07 

you mentioned working with your son and and you know a lot of our listeners, they have family businesses and what have you learned, you know, working with your son and what advice can you give people?

Mickey Drexler 3:19 

Well, I don't I'm not sure I'm the one to give advice. It was a very hard first year or so. Extremely difficult on both sides. And we had a I'll call them a coach, weekly. Maybe they're called a therapist, a coach, whatever. And we met regularly to try to work out the issues. I wasn't giving up on anything. And I think what I've learned is stop being a micromanager with your son. Give him some space, give him some room. Give him more credit. And I learned that and and I think he's learned a lot. But it hasn't been easy. Now we're kind of doing okay, together.

David Novak 4:09 

That's fantastic. That's good. But you know, Mickey, I know that you you weren't exactly born with a silver spoon. Tell us about your upbringing.

Mickey Drexler 4:18 

Well, I grew up in the Bronx on Barnes Avenue near Allerton Avenue. My dad worked in in the garment this is in the shipping room, buying piece goods and buttons. My mom was a secretary to the head of the white MHA in the South Bronx. She got sick at a young age. She died at 43 My dad was pretty impossible for me to live with. He was a person who he just wasn't there as The as an affectionate, loving dad. So I grew up I was, you know, in those days you grow up, you go to school, kindergarten, no one's taking you. And I never thought of myself as poor. But I certainly was not a kid with any, any affluence in my family, none of my family had that.

David Novak 5:21 

And that experience shaped the way I usually

Mickey Drexler 5:23 

huge, huge. When I went to work in my dad's building, and I say I went through the freight elevator, I always identified to this day, a millions of years later, with people who are fighting to succeed, who weren't born with a silver spoon in their mouth. And I didn't know anyone who was born with a silver spoon, frankly. And to this day, it's really to me about you say, hello. I know it sounds silly. But you say hello to people who think you're think you're important. You are important. Respect, respect people always. And it made a huge difference in my life. I always say you learn to be a leader, in a sense by watching those who either lead Well, or don't lead. Well.

David Novak 6:15 

You know, I understand Mickey, that your first 10 years of business that you know that you actually hated it. I you know, I've, you know, why was that? And what did that teach you when you are coming up?

Mickey Drexler 6:26 

Well, I wouldn't say it due respect to Bloomingdale's, ans and Macy's. I didn't like it. Okay. I hate bureaucracy. I don't like people who don't listen to an idea. I don't like people who want to say, I mean, they're fine people, I just but but I found many people are employed to protect their jobs. And it took me a long time to get over that. Well, I didn't take me that long of time. Just then I decided I'm going to take a shot at maybe running a company

David Novak 7:02 

where you're in Bloomingdale's and units. It's kind of a bureaucracy, you know. So a lot of people get stuck in these bureaucracies earlier on in their career. But you had to do well there to move up, you know, so how did you go about distinguishing yourself even in this tough environment?

Mickey Drexler 7:17 

Well, you know, it's interesting. I was very lucky. I started at Bloomingdale's. My second first day was in housewares. I didn't know where a pot or pan was. And I'm like, intimidated. Then a fellow named Stan stern moves me into it apparel department. And what was then the Lexington shop because Barbara St. Onge was on maternity leave. I get there, I'm running a business. And I loved it. And I did it for six months, I went to the market every day. And no one was teaching. The other night, Stan was kind of given me my free rein. And I had a great time with no boss. And following my instinct, I remember what was selling. And it was just a total turn on to me. And then, and then I had to go to the branches, which I hated. This is all then. And I came back. And that was kind of the end of my most fun. Oh, and I was a sweater and swimsuit buyer and a T shirt buyer. After that was over I was in in the movement of corporate bureaucracy. And I said, I just don't want to be here anymore. And I found the same thing at Macy's. And I found worse at ans. And I found I got very lucky to get a job at and tailors the president. When I was 35 years old. They offered me the job. I said no, I said no. And a friend of mine said, take the job, run a company. It's much better than what you do right now.

David Novak 8:49 

And tailor it 35 Vicki, that's impressive, you know, and what did you learn from that? And how much anxiety did you have going into a big role like that at such a young age?

Mickey Drexler 9:00 

Well, anxiety, I always said that I went there, and I was 35. No one told me what to do. But I just did what I thought should get done. And I don't know. Maybe look, I'm a nature versus nurture guy. And I always I think I was lucky I had a touch. And I followed my instinct. And no one ever told me I can't follow it. Except in the big department stores. They wouldn't listen to what your instinct was anyway. So I think I was very fortunate to go work at and tailor bio is a tiny company then just so you know. It was 25 stores and my friends said take it, run it and then build it. So we built the 55 stores. Unfortunately, we've taken over by the biggest bureaucracy, the department store business and allied stores

David Novak 9:53 

you really love this bureaucratic, right I can't.

Mickey Drexler 9:56 

Well, I hate that. I hate authority. I Hate authority without a normal explanation, or just as the rule and you do it. And I think most people don't allow people to kind of think the way they should be thinking, as a leader as whatever. And I always found that I followed my instinct. If I was wrong, I was wrong. And yeah, I don't, I don't like the authority only because you had to argue about everything you wanted to do?

David Novak 10:29 

Well, you did a great job and tailor, you got noticed, you know, you were seen as a leader, then you get asked to go run the gap. What did you inherit when you went to the gap? And what did you do to hit the ground running?

Mickey Drexler 10:43 

gap was going bankrupt, unless was fixed. It was about a $430 million company, then I'll never forget, I moved to California, I left and Taylor on a Friday, mood Sunday, and was checking in and out of hotels for six months, which was not the way to commute or to get a new job. I went, I started culturally, I was usually I think the words depressed. I went to work at San Bruno California, facing the airport, facing the bay, et cetera, et cetera. And it was a nightmare. And the company was a disaster. All the inventory was bad. And so I face bad inventory, a culture that they couldn't connect to me. And I couldn't connect any of them, San Bruno, California. And it was it was, and my wife and I both kept saying, What the hell are we doing here? I was, I was quite depressed. We had a public company. And the stock, I started taking markdowns, you know, if you have, if your food is not is like stale, you got to get rid of it. So my first day always on new jobs, I look at all the goods. And I look, a nightmare. And the way they thought about things was a double nightmare. And who is this guy from New York, I'll probably be the third guy fired in this job in the last three years, which is, which was was the case, and I started taking markdowns was the week of Thanksgiving, in, I'll never forget. And I walked through and I first things I looked at the inventory. And while you're looking at the inventory, you're making judgment on people, because without the right people, without people who you see have the potential to get it. And that's really all you're working on. Because most of the time, in an environment. That's opposite of how you think. You don't know who's good and not good. And you really have no one to ask. So I sat down and met with everyone who was merchandising designing, and I got a sense of them. And then you're fighting all day long, because, you know, you're just fighting a lot. And Don, who was terrific in a lot of ways, was not a merchant, you know, he started the company by by having Levi only stores and 35% of our business was Levi's, which was a big disaster. And they were buying rigid Levi's, not the wash kind. And I was just liquidating inventory. And Don, about a month later calls me into his office and says, We were right next door to each other. He says what is going on here? We're gonna have a horrible, horrible quarter. I said, you have to you can't keep these old goods. And I said, You got to take your markdowns, you got to do this to stock. Now this is the part that was also torturing the stock went from, I think 23 or 24 to 12. Now, I'm the president of the corporation, or whatever, and I'm watching the stock drop in half. And it had to, and he was upset. I understand because he didn't understand why he was dropping them half. Anyway, long story short, you work every day, it never give up. You train, you push. You have to have your own ideas implemented, and you're taking those kinds of risks. And it wasn't fun. The first two years I'll never forget I got in November of 83. We were going to go bankrupt I think August of 85. We went we redid 400 stores, put brand new goods in 400 stores. New campaign. August 15 comes every store was redone. Don and I went through every store in the company redid it. And I did all the goods. All the new goods brought people in who I knew from, from Ann Taylor. And I'll never forget The company took off like a rocket. Now, of course, you don't appreciate it as much because it's still afraid. How will you make the figures next year? I don't know if you went through that. And the restaurant business, you know,

David Novak 15:11 

baby a year ago is always a tough one. You know, Mickey, I've always found that consumers aren't really good at telling you what they want. How did you go about determining what direction you wanted to take? Well,

Mickey Drexler 15:23 

for me, it's always been inside of me. But but one of the things is, I always admired certain companies. I just I felt that everything in America was too expensive. Ralph Lauren, I always admired Ralph. I thought his clothes were too high. I like Benetton in Italy, point of view. Brooks Brothers, then was very profitable. They had their own label. And, and I liked what they did, they made a lot of money, and I watched them destroy themselves through cheapening the goods. So what happened here 20 years later, or 25 years later, no surprise, they've been working on cheapening that company for 25 years, because I watched the then CEO, take workmanship out of the clothes, I'll never forget sitting in a meeting these I want to maintain the price, we took this zipper away, we got a cheaper here, a cheaper there. And that's why they're a disaster. I don't know what they'll do with it today. Because I'm not sure they're going to go back to building a great Brooks Brothers again. So but it was, it was really very, very difficult emotionally. But the company took off like a rocket, I never really appreciated it. We were the number one stock on the stock exchange, I think for 10 years.

David Novak 16:46 

But you learned from Brooks Brothers that helped turnaround the business or you know, you pick,

Mickey Drexler 16:49 

I learned Brooks Brothers, I should say was owned by the same parent company, as Ann Taylor. So I got to know a lot about what they did. And it was very simple. Your name is Brooks Brothers on every label. And by the way, no one could take that away from you. And you don't have to worry about discounting or competition. So that's what I learned. I also learned don't take the quality at a product, because they were

David Novak 17:16 

doing that when you went to gap to where did you walk in there saying, Hey, listen, I'm gonna have my own label. And, you know, I'm going to make sure we have high quality. And I mean, how'd you did you have that winning formula when you walked in the door?

Mickey Drexler 17:29 

Well, it's funny. I had a list of products. When I 40. Today, and this, I wanted to open a business, but you know, then you couldn't go out and they'll give me 20 million, I'll start a company how to do. I had a list of products. I said, America needs these products. And they need them at this price. And they needed color. And they needed classically, things they needed was style. That was my startup. So when I walked in the door, at Gap, I think it was about price value, et cetera. So and by the way, the funny thing is, cap had about 15 names. You know, they had like the number one they they were arguing. foxtails was the name of the jeans collection. I walk in there, like I'm in a foreign country, by the way, Fox tails, what kind of name is that? They had about 50 names like that. And then they say surveys tell you that that's one of our most popular names. And I'd say well, surveys will now tell you I don't care what surveys tell you. It's gonna be gap. That's our name, gap. You think I spent a lot of time and arguing Of course I did. Tiger tails gap, this name and that name was It was weird. It was really weird. And I learned that vision thing is so important. You know, that that vision thing? And the more research you do on certain things. I mean, I went Steve Jobs to 16 years, kind of it. He never did like a survey, you know? Yeah. Speaking

David Novak 19:07 

of Steve Jobs, just for our listeners here, you know, I understand. He actually recruited you to join the apple board, and you turned him down. Now, Mickey, I thought you were a smart guy. You know, tell us that story.

Mickey Drexler 19:20 

Well, that was a stupid move. i Well, I actually I turned down and two or three times to it was not smart. You know, it was a conservative guy. Steve came up to me. And I basically don't like being on public company boards. Yes, I was stupid as hell. Because Steve, by the way, is the most seductive human being. May he rest in peace and love Steve. He says, I'll tell you what. I'll join the gap board. If you join my board, and I said deal. And he did exactly what he was called to do. I didn't speak to him. He was a troublemaker. He come into the meetings late. He he'd come in and started naked. He just created a lot of problems. And no one really liked him except me, because actually, I loved him when he came in. And he would argue, and he would say this, and he would say that. And so that's how we did the deal. So you

David Novak 20:15 

and his board and he went on, you're exactly. What do you think Steve Jobs learned from you, Mickey? Well,

Mickey Drexler 20:23 

you know, it's a good question. I know, he wanted me there, because he wanted me to help them in retail. And Steve is the kind of guy we maybe you all have friends like this, no matter what you feel stupid. And by the end of the meeting, or whatever, the first I designed with him the first store, we killed the design. And then we designed from that he might have learned common sense. Because in Silicon Valley, it's just not there's not a lot of long on common sense. So he might learn that, and but retail colors. And then once he learns from you, he takes it and runs with it.

David Novak 21:06 

So you did the first Apple Store with him. What was the big insight that you had that maybe he wouldn't?

Mickey Drexler 21:11 

Well, it was not, it was it was kind of simple. The stores, it was a church kind of store. It wasn't clean. It wasn't simple. It wasn't timeless. And the first thing was, we walked in, we had a warehouse, we took I said, get a warehouse and build a store. So we walked in, and I said, Steve, this, it was just really horrible. And you can't really explain what a horrible store looks like trying to explain to anyone Oh, the store is horrible. Which is one of the issues I have in life. That's ugly, or that's nice. And how do you explain ugly, I don't know anyone who can explain the ugly or nice. So we, we designed the store together, we have forgotten what the architect was. And to me it was always it was white, clean, and showing product. And store you'll be really comfortable being in. And that's that's what we did. And I mean, the stores still feel the same. He became the greatest retailer in the world really fast. And he just he studied, and he asked people and nothing stopped him from learning. And he acted like I worked for him, which was fine. I was proud to be to get woken up in the morning, or late at night. It was you know, this is Steve calling. That's all right, I'll be I'll be

David Novak 22:37 

you know, you had a amazing run at Gap and you lead pop culture with your marketing and advertising. You created fantastic work and as a leader, how would you go about getting great work from your ad agency and the creative people,

Mickey Drexler 22:54 

first of all, was never an ad agency. I'm allergic to AD. It was?

Unknown Speaker 23:02 

Why is that? Well,

Mickey Drexler 23:03 

the first ad agency we worked with was I forgot the name of it. We're in a meeting with five of them. I know one guy, the key guy is sleeping, I swear I'm not exaggerating. He was sleeping. And that was my first experience with an ad agency, I find agencies first response is to their agency, not to you as the client. I don't want to deal with account representatives. I want to deal directly with creative people. I want them to hear what I have to say. And I want to tell them what I think and those people work for you. And the great. And by the way, the great commercials we did and the great ads we did. Were all about people who worked in the company one, Maggie worked with me and Taylor. She wasn't a marketing person. She just was very creative and did the individual style, the dance thing, the Old Navy, the Old Navy campaign, which was probably one of the grants.

David Novak 24:06 

So how did you get the great work out of them? I mean, well, I mean, obviously, you know, creative people have got to be motivated. What it how did you get great work?

Mickey Drexler 24:13 

Well, what you do is you articulate and you feel, and you it's a really good question. It's hard to answer. You've got to, they've got to be excited. They've got to understand your vision. And you never give up you to be successful. As you know, you just don't give up and you must have a vision. You can't be going in and taking surveys of all your customers. The got it you got to see around corners, and you got to feel it and you got to have an idea and a feeling and then you got to bet on people. And I was very lucky. What What

David Novak 24:49 

advice do you give someone Mickey to on how to how to see around corners. That's that's a nice little phrase. But I mean, you know, well how would you how Would you coach somebody on doing well,

Mickey Drexler 25:01 

I don't know if it's coachable. I I'm not sure that a lot of things are coachable. I think the some of the genius people I met or work with, have a knack. It's a knack of instinct. It's always an instinct. And I'm not, I'm not against doing well in school, and studying hard. But it doesn't teach you how to be great at food or selling like in your business. You know, you were describing to me two weeks ago, what dishes are great in some companies, so you describe that to me, and maybe it's the pickle on a hamburger, I think you've got to let people know. It's detail. And everything's important. Like, like, before I was on with you, I had a meeting about just creativity. And I and I was talking about, it's all about creative people, and then operating people who can back them up. That's what when I think of my career, I'm very lucky to have worked with well, it's not luck, you got to pick them, you got to chase them, you got to recruit them, you got to find them. I was on the phone with someone just before regarding social media. How did I find her? I found her through asking a lot of people who was good, this job or that job or another job, and then you interview you recruit them, you seduce you do this, that the other thing, but you feel the energy, you feel the creativity, you feel the operating skill. Now that being said, I'm not good at picking someone who was a technologist, I wouldn't know the first thing, because they'll talk to me and I won't know what they're talking about. When it comes to merchandising and marketing and style and taste. And common sense that I'm good at.

David Novak 27:04 

You went to the gap, which was an established friend that was struggling and you turned it around. But then you had the opportunity to create Old Navy from scratch. Tell us your thinking, you know, what, what, how did you go about leading the development of that brand?

Mickey Drexler 27:20 

Well, it's interesting. I use this last week and Alex built tiny little company. I said, don't give up your secrets. I was in a fight. Hopefully they took it down. Today from the website. I said, Don't you dare tell him what you're thinking in any industry. So I'm reading an article in The New York Times page three. That target then called Dayton Hudson, starting a company called everyday hero. And it's a copy of GAAP, that everyone was copying gapped in Walmart, this one that one, you know, it's a price of success. I fly to the Mall of America to see the store when it opened. I said this is the worst copy of the gap I've ever seen. They had our old fixtures they had this. But they said you knowing I don't know the company? Well, I'm guessing they did a huge amount of research. Huge, I'm guessing this I think there were research type nothing wrong with it. If that's your culture, I went to so I looked at I say we could do it much better. I'm not sure what I'm gonna do much better. I went to visit three stores in Chicago that the demographics of a discount kind of store. We took a lot of markdowns up that that that. So I came back I gave 10 people to one arounds each, and I assign discount stores to them, I assigned categories. And I said go shop, I want to learn something because I was knowing about target Kmart that that and I gave them $20 Each, which was maybe for what's 25 years old. So it was like 400 or 500. And I said, Come back in a week or two. Tell me what you learned. I was looking exactly for what they said. It was 10 of them. And the oh the other thing is jeans in America then. Jay gap was 35 bucks and above for all jeans. And J America was 30,000 and there was the Jesus gap all jeans at 35 and 80% of the jeans in America. Were under 30 something Oh my God, I am so affidavit. I didn't know that because I was not like a I was a merchant with value but not at that level. So I come back. They told me everything I wanted to hear what I want to hear about the product. It's about value. It's about fashion. It's about you know, not ending an 897 I was curious because Walmart always ended and 897 992 Long story short I said, Let's do it. Right after the meeting, I told Don about it in thought it was always very kind of, okay, I'm starting a new company, it'll take 50 or 100 million or whatever. So I didn't know it then. And I took someone from gap. I took three people from gap. I said, Okay, we then open a new company. And it's going to be, well, we didn't know the name of Old Navy. But we took the name from a bar in Paris, driving to the airport, Old Navy

David Novak 30:31 

bar name.

Mickey Drexler 30:33 

And it was free, by the way, because I paid for I bought the name maidwell for 125,000. And didn't know what I was going to do with it. But I bought it personally before I joined the company, J Crew. And so I bought the name Old Navy, Don, and I made recipes. We thought about it for at least a month or two, I hired two naming companies spent probably a half a million to a million for bad names. And then, you know, we said okay, we're calling it Old Navy, because we don't have any other names. Like our rock, it took off, like our rocket, never forget. And now it's it's, I think, a billion of gaps. 14 billion, I think it's 80% of profit. So

David Novak 31:20 

as a fantastic job. It's hard to believe but you know, they do say that the death of someone you love divorce and getting fired, are like the three most devastating things that can happen to you on a personal level, and you did a phenomenal job at GAAP. And you actually get fired. How did that impact you?

Mickey Drexler 31:40 

Well, I usually I hated it. First of all, I'll tell you what impacted me mostly and was the way it was done. 18 years value from 160 million, I think to about 8 billion. And family became incredibly wealthy. And I did well. But so don't Steve Jobs calls me one night after a board meeting. He never showed up at the board meeting said you're getting fired tomorrow. Well, they didn't want to tell him. I said oh, I kind of then I started putting two and two together. And I knew no one looked at me that night. You know, it is when no one looked at me. We had a great collection of new goods I fixed. What I did is I I know you fix it. It's a fashion business. So I called Don at nine o'clock and 90s I can't talk now come and see me and he hands me a letter to leave. I said it. I was like did I steal that I do some 18 years leave today's your last day. And I I said I can't believe this. And I was really I mean, I didn't say calmly. I said where's your decency and integrity? The board thinks this I that I do something wrong. And I went to see the board. No one looked at me. And then I called my lawyer. I said hell, I was not it was it was horrible. Horrible. And 18 years. 18 years.

David Novak 33:18 

Have you ever gotten over it? Yeah, you know, something?

Mickey Drexler 33:20 

I got back to New York. In my life. San Francisco was okay. I love New York. Hey, I

David Novak 33:27 

got to ask yourself, How do you fire someone?

Mickey Drexler 33:30 

How do I fire someone? I look at them, like chat with them. And nice, nice. I want to work at it. I was friendly with everyone. I've fired. By the way. If you think about my career, I am not. I'm a fire. You know, as as the head of a company. I fired a lot of people. It's a chat. It's they knew it's not that words. Like I think at the end of the day, they have to trust you. They have to know who you are. And no one's surprised. They never surprised because you're sitting down you're not filling out forms. I think you're just telling them. Look, you're not doing well. And I'm concerned and you just tell them please. I'm gonna ask you to leave. I do. Look I have a lot of sense and feeling from people. What at the end of the day. I have a thing I think about my dad. This is I always think about him. He made $15,000 A year and and sometimes when I look at people I fire they're making well whatever the number is 500 600 300 for him. And I say to myself, you know they deserve to be fired because they did not do a good job. And that takes a little of the sting out of me on firing them because it's fair that because once they did are affecting other people. And I always say, someone you're firing is impacting the lives of many people, I usually fire because they're not doing a good job. They're bad leaders. They're not nice to the team. And they're very political. And so I always kind of think about, I grew up with nothing. And my father didn't have anything. And I, when I took the payroll to the bank, I knew he was the lowest paid guy in his company. So that helps me through. And I say, it's not fair life, but that's the way it is.

David Novak 35:36 

Now, on the other hand, I understand when you're hiring people, you interview almost everyone that's hired at any company you're in, you know, why is that so important to you? And what do you look for?

Mickey Drexler 35:48 

Well, it's a cultural thing. I look for curiosity, I look for learning from them. I want to learn after I spend a half hour now with them, I got to learn something about them and what they have done in their life. And so I always look for that I look for an energy you feel like I just got off the phone about an hour ago with a woman who grew up in Buffalo, New York. Very talented. I hear and she was, and we just talked about buffalo, the curiosity, where do you live, I was at the hamburger place with the Kentucky Fried Chicken. I live behind that, that, that, that that. And we had a great half hour discussion. And I talked to the ballet dancer. And she worked for a very good company, and then went to be a consultant. And you just you kind of know there's a connection and a curiosity, and an intelligence level, the day before I interviewed someone in the same area. And you know, something, the more you spend time chatting, it's a chat. You learn if they're good or not good. So, but I can't do it with technology people, I just can never figure

David Novak 37:01 

it out. So you know, after you get, you know, let go with the gap, you almost immediately go in as the Chairman and CEO of J. Crew. You know, did you know what you were gonna do there? The minute you walk in the door? Or how do you go about learning the business?

Mickey Drexler 37:18 

Well, I always admired always admired J Crew always liked the company. And I, it's good, it's instinct, you know, they are a great preppy ish company. And you You also one of the things you also do, which I didn't mention before, except the gap, they just sold a lot of crap at at J Crew went to hell. But you start to dig in and see where there's a little asset that sells something that gives you a hint of where you take a company. And in that, in that case, there was enough hints to take it someplace. But for me, it's always about style, value, fashion, and not crazy fashion. That's that's what I do. And it's always kind of the same. But it's also having the team to do it without the right team, you cannot do any of these things.

David Novak 38:18 

He said you must keep your blinders on when you make change. Don't let the noise get in the way. Right? How did you learn that lesson? And tell me a time when you know that that noise didn't stop you from doing what you knew you had to

Mickey Drexler 38:30 

do? Well, I think I live with the noise. Because when you go into a company like gap, or banana republic, or J Crew, you can't listen to anyone. It's such a disaster, that you have to sit there yourself and follow your instinct. Usually you have a couple of people you call and you say my crazy, you know, we always have to have that my crazy things. You know, it's very hard to do it on your own without at least someone to talk to. So I always had a small little group, like in fact, tonight at 630, I'm having a meeting. But how do you get Alex mil on the map? So I'm, you know, so I called 10 friends of mine, who all are when I say friends, people I know who all are really, really strong marketers. And you kind of and that's the meaning. In fact, one of one of my friends who is an advisor, said I think it's time for you to get more famous. And so you never know where you're going to learn or what you're going to learn. And I'm a learner. I have great curiosity. And I always want to call someone who can teach me more than I know. I'm always astounded by people when they hire other people. They're not making the phone calls they need to make you know it's Unbelievable.

David Novak 40:02 

You're Mickey, you're so confident, so convicted, you got to scare the hell out of some people. I mean, how do you get people to let them know that you really want them to come back at you and take you on?

Mickey Drexler 40:15 

You know, it's a really it's a tough question. Because right now, hello, 15 people, I keep saying, Will someone please answer me? Tell me what you think it's after? Well, it's kind of trust, it's this, it's that I don't want to, like I'm not a No at all at all. I like the other day, I have these discussions. And age wise, a lot of the very young people don't want to listen to it, older guy who's been there and done it, which is crazy, but over time, by the gotta hire the people who are going to have a chat with you. And it's hard to find them when I but I find them. You know, if you're lucky, this usually most corporations, you notice, you got three or four or five partners. If you have them, you're going to really do well. They're going to they're going to understand they're going to talk to you, they're going to fight with you and all that.

David Novak 41:11 

You know, I understand you when you're a J Crew, you moved your desk out on the floor of the or your headquarters, or whatever you call it. And yeah, and you go on the loudspeaker. Tell us about this?

Mickey Drexler 41:22 

Well, yeah, the loudspeaker the first day I got there. I was in an enclosed office. And you know, a gap. I had an open office. No, all those years, it's like, you know, you can see everyone, you got to watch someone walking towards you on an interview. I say they gotta walk fast on an interview, they walk slow on an interview. It's not good. If they're walking down the hallway, slowly. It's not good. No, it's serious. This is what it's like. So I'm in this room. And I'm thinking, what am I doing in this room alone with doors? So I was the CEO office. So I moved my desk. And then I'm making calls, and no one's answering. You know, we had two or three floors, actually a lot of people there. And no one's answering it. I cannot wait. I cannot wait for someone to call me an hour later, or two hours, especially when the chips going down. And by the way to this day, I want people to respond to my emails within an hour, at most, unless, whatever. So I'm waiting for an answer. I'm waiting for this. I'm waiting for that. And I said, there's only one way to do it. I never, I didn't think about it. I put a loudspeaker in the first week. And I said, well, so and so please call me right now. And it ended up being a fantastic tool to work in because it enabled me to ask people questions that I want to have answers to, whether it's about merchandise, whether it's about real estate, whether it's about you know, who lives and I can say who lives in St. Louis, when we were opening stores, what do you think of this center versus that. And it was a little bit of a radio broadcast on, on telling people what goes on, I learned a lesson. It's all about communicating and what you've learned. And you know, today, it's interesting, I like with podcasts. I do podcasts, I really liked them. And the last one I did was I thought it was pretty interesting, just as this one will be, I send them out to the office. No one has ever told me. They listen to my podcast. Now I called Bobby Brown the other day. I said, Bobby, let me ask you something. You do a lot of podcasts? Does anyone listen to your podcasts? Or do you notice they never say a word, whether they listen to it or not? And I said, Well, what happens if I went in one day? How many people listened to my last podcast? She goes, Just keep your mouth shut? Don't ask. Anyway, so but but you know, I like to learn. And I like to see who's doing something smart and wise. And that's the way it is.

David Novak 44:07 

You know, you told me over lunch that you're only as good in retail as your worst salesperson. And so how do you go into a store? What do you look for? Who do you talk to?

Mickey Drexler 44:18 

Well, I will right now unfortunately, I've only one store and I don't go in but I used to go in. And first of all, if you want to feel an energy in any store, you want to feel a real energy among the people. I will talk to anyone and everyone. I will have meetings with the store teams regularly. I will talk to a store manager I will call them up. I want to know what's going on and who knows better than a person in the store dealing with customers. That's the way it is. And I don't understand how people don't take advantage of that. Maybe Maybe they do take advantage. I'm learning every single day and the most of 14 People I learned from the stores, especially when you have a business that's going bad. So you bring people in you say, tell me what they're looking for what don't they like? What's wrong? What's this that the other thing? And it's it's mandatory, you obviously

David Novak 45:13 

attack the business with the daily intensity. There's no question about that. But rumor has it that you're actually a hell of a lot of fun to work with. What do you what do you do to create a fun work environment?

Mickey Drexler 45:26 

Well, right now I'm not sure I'm so much fun at Alex and I don't get I don't get enough smiles or laughs Maybe they don't know me. Well, who knows? You know what I do? i It's a good question. No one ever asked me. I think I have a sense of humor. I love people. I love to schmooze total schmoozer. And I think I'm, I think people How do I say this? I grew up shy. I grew up not being a schmoozer. And I love the fact that I every day I'm busy with really good people. I love the people I work with. And, and that's fun for me. But it's tough. You know, that part's fun. It just be yourself. And you know what people want? They want someone who's honest. Direct, has a sense of humor. And, and, and is and gives respect to people with air. You you respect what's in their brain. I don't know if that's fun.

David Novak 46:26 

You know, speaking of fun, I want to add a little more fun with you. I've had fun with this conversation, obviously, you know, but how about a little lightning round a q&a? Are you ready for this? Okay. Okay, what three words best describe you.

Mickey Drexler 46:38 

My wife's right outside? Should I ask her?

David Novak 46:41 

You want to have her?

Mickey Drexler 46:42 

Determined, determined, focused, focused, loving, loving?

David Novak 46:50 

Wow, good thing. She threw that loving in there. You know, that's good. That's good. What would be your biggest pet peeve? People who aren't

Mickey Drexler 46:57 

fast, who don't respond quickly annoys the heck out and don't call you back fast.

David Novak 47:03 

If you could be one person beside yourself for a day, who would it be Bruce Springsteen, because that's you get to be the boss.

Mickey Drexler 47:11 

I love Bruce. He is the best. I know him a little and he's just fantastic.

David Novak 47:18 

What business leader Nicky would you admire most today and why?

Mickey Drexler 47:23 

I have enormous respect for the Google guys.

David Novak 47:27 

Mickey I know you starred in Breaking Bad with, uh, you know, right. You know, do you have any other hidden talents besides acting?

Mickey Drexler 47:38 

Nope. My little two, my two little labs are here hanging out. But no, I don't.

David Novak 47:44 

What's something about you that few people would know?

Mickey Drexler 47:49 

I am extremely sensitive. And, and I I feel badly if I do something that that it's not nice to

David Novak 48:01 

people. Now. Here's one that I think you know, my daughter wanted me to ask you this way. You know, what's the your favorite article of clothes that you personally created? And what's your favorite outfit you love to wear?

Mickey Drexler 48:15 

Favorite article of clothes that I've created? Yeah, well, you know, I didn't invent a Chino or gene. But I make a lot of them and sell a lot of them. I would say tell your daughter. It's it's jeans, but I'm transitioning into chinos. You know, I'm starting to wear chinos versus jeans.

David Novak 48:40 

Makey. What advice? Okay, you seem to think that, as far as I can tell, you seem to think that you're either creative, or you're not. Okay, yeah. So what advice do you give to someone who wants to be more creative? I mean, high, you can't just throw up your hands and say, Hey, I can't do it.

Mickey Drexler 49:02 

You know, creativity comes in many forms. So my creative is probably more related to product marketing, et cetera, I'm sure. Well, in any area in the world. Fears, creativity, food. Hello, right. I mean, you're in the food, business, technology creative. I think I'm a big believer that you're, you're handed down certain things, but you can't develop them. If you're not so creativity, and I don't want it this is my version of creativity. But I don't think you can become creative. Unless you have curiosity. Always you must have curiosity. You must. But I think you're

David Novak 49:52 

born with it. Frankly. You know, Mickey, you ran public companies, and everybody in public companies talks about you know, developing theirs. successor, how much time did you spend doing that?

Mickey Drexler 50:03 

Well, you know, it's really not enough. And, well, here's the well, I got fired at GAAP at J Crew. Terrible succession planning, I had nothing to do with developing my successor, because they hired someone who was the wrong person beyond the wrong character. And one of the things that annoyed me most in my career is how that was handled. It was handled by they hired this guy. And I had nothing to do with it. And I said, Don't do it. And they did it. And I own a good chunk of the company, which I don't own anymore, because it's not worth anything. When you know, now it's out of bankruptcy or whatever. But a sore point for me, and the thing I learned is, you know, businesses, business, financial people are not close or hamburger people. And I say that respect to your world. I have nothing to do with it. Nothing zero. No one has no one asked my opinion about the transition from J. Crew. When I left, no one,

David Novak 51:17 

you know, Mickey, you've had so much success, and you've earned every bit of it, you know, how are you helping others today?

Mickey Drexler 51:23 

Well, Peggy, and I have a foundation. And it's devoted to people who are disadvantaged. And Peggy has also, she's become a documentarian has had for a documentary she's made, and our foundation supports them based on you know, like, ACLU now is the force she just produced. And it's about I think, teaching people who, again, are disadvantaged in that regard. So I think that's how we do that. That's where we are. And frankly, I don't have a lot of time. Now, but we were taking care of that I don't wanna say in our afterlife, but we are working on on a plan at some point to, you know, to give to the right places, but we give mostly the disadvantaged people organizations education,

David Novak 52:35 

great making, I got one last question here. I want to ask you good. Okay. Got a lot of firing leaders who listen to this show. Yeah, what three bits of advice would you give him?

Mickey Drexler 52:44 

Don't give up? It's really hard. And you're going to worry like crazy half the time like no one, no one really talks about the anxiety. And of a leader, no one talks about the insecurity of leaders. No one is there should be group sessions in my mind, about what we all go through. Because I don't know any good leader who's not worried half the time. I don't know how you were David, when. But I don't know anyone who doesn't worry every day, about their business, and cares like crazy. All right, number one, number two, know that you're going to hit a lot of walls. And when that happens, know that you're going to follow your inside instinct about what you want to do. And don't just listen to people because they have an opinion. If you ask someone, something, make sure they have the credentials to give you a good opinion. And again, I go back to you got to be incredibly smart, and you got to be smart. Hiring the right people is critical. And hopefully you have a good idea.

David Novak 53:56 

That's great. You know, I remember Mickey reading an article in Fortune magazine. It was about your success that you had gap and you had in retail, same store sales is everything. You've got to keep growing your same store sales year after year after year. And you talked about a plus 10 mentality and does that come from your your chief worry officer mentality?

Mickey Drexler 54:19 

Yeah, you know, it does. You worry. You don't get up any day not worrying about either hitting last year's figures or whatever. And it never stops, you know, never stops.

David Novak 54:35 

Well, Mickey it's great to know that you are never stopping. You know, you are you know, you're still building things and I expect Alex Miller will be another another home run given the energy that you're putting into it

Mickey Drexler 54:49 

we're working on by the way, I'm nervous about that. You know, you know so, anyway, you

David Novak 55:00 

I appreciate you. Thanks,

Mickey Drexler 55:02 

David. I appreciate this great, really enjoyed it any time take care

David Novak 55:15 

well, that was clearly one of the wildest Lightning Rounds I've ever had in such a fun conversation with Mickey Drexler. To be totally honest, the retail world as we know it exists because Mickey Drexler wasn't afraid to break some rules. And boy, did he ever. I mean, I can just imagine him dragging his desk out on the floor, can't you or installing that loudspeaker so he could get the feedback he needed from his team. I mean, this is a guy who has absolutely no patience. I'm talking about zero patience for bureaucracy, or anything that's going to get in the way of his vision. And he's not afraid to do whatever he needs to do to see it through, even if it means breaking some rules. Now, I don't think you need to go out and buy a loudspeaker. But I do think there's a huge opportunity to learn from Mickey here and I want to offer you a bit of coaching to help this week as part of your weekly personal development plan. I want you to think about some small rule, some bit of bureaucracy that's been slowing you down as you're working towards a big goal. Better yet, ask your team what's slowing them down, then ask what could you do to bypass it? Can you cut through some red tape even if it means ruffling a few feathers? Believe me when you do, you're gonna get some joy doing it. Great leaders know that sometimes it's necessary to really push their vision, and nobody is a better example of it than the one and only Mickey Drexler. So do you want to know how leaders lead what we learned today is the great leaders sometimes have to break the rules. Thanks again for tuning in to another episode of how leaders lead where every Thursday you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world. I make it a point to give you something simple on each episode that you can apply to your business so that you will become the best leader you can be