David Novak 0:03 

Welcome to How leaders lead where every week you get to listen in while I interview some of the best leaders in the world, I break down the key learning so that by the end of the episode, you'll have something simple that you can apply as you develop into a better leader. That's what this podcast is all about. Today's guest is Larry syn, who's actually the father of corporate culture and the chairman of sin Delaney, Larry and his business partner were hired by Sam Walton in the early days of Walmart. And it was there that Larry began to understand the intangible part of an organization that really makes a difference. Today, we call this company culture, which is simply defined as the way people behave and the way they work together. Believe it or not, Larry published the world's first research on corporate culture, and has spent his entire career helping organizations be at their best when you think about it, helping others be at their best. That is what being a great leader, and a great coach is all about. And I'll tell you, Larry has made quite an impact in my life as my coach over the years. So today's episode is very special for me, and I can't wait for you to hear it. Here's my conversation with my good friend, and soon to be yours, Larry sin, the chairman of sin, Delaney.

You know, Larry, you were the Pioneer. And now you're the leading authority in culture building. Tell us your story. How

Larry Senn 1:34 

did you grow up? I think I was born to be an entrepreneur. My mother really believed in the American way and independence and capitalism. Also, I started selling flowers on street corners when I was 11 years old on commission, and I realized you could make more money if you're one of the drivers that drove other kids to corner. So I was 14 years old, I got a driver's license. So I could not only sell myself and make money off other kids. And that kind of got in my blood. My dad was an engineer, though, and I didn't know any better. So I started UCLA engineering school. At the same time, I started my first business at 17, which was kids selling flowers and streetcars. And I ended up with as many as 100 kids out there on holidays and weekends. And then I saw they didn't sell flowers in supermarkets that time you had to go to a florist. I went to Europe. And so everybody brought flowers home. So I said, Well, why don't I do that? So I started a second business, which was selling flowers and produce departments of supermarkets. So by the time I was 18, I was driving a Jaguar f k 120. And doing pretty well, I thought, hey, I kind of like this. You're kidding me. Then you were doing, you're doing this in college in Collin College, while I was at the same time in the gymnastics team and taking a full load and engineering school and working weekends and holidays and the business. So you got to work hard to be a leader and entrepreneur,

David Novak 2:44 

if you have any experiences when you're doing that, that really drove home the importance of team building?

Larry Senn 2:48 

Yes, it was all about energy management, if you can get the right energy from people, and you can direct them. And what that takes is people feeling appreciated, people feeling valued, people feeling recognized. So I spent most of my time, even with the kids on street corners, pumping them up, letting them know, they're doing a great job, get out there hustling, and thanking them. And I learned very early on that if they felt good about themselves, and what they were doing, I'd say, you know, you're making people happy taking these flowers home, if they could feel that they do better. And that stayed with me my whole life.

David Novak 3:20 

You know, it's really amazing to me and I listened to hear you don't sound very much like an engineer. I not yet you you went into engineering to you study that it's not a field necessarily known for exhibiting people skills. But why do you think that is? Yeah, I

Larry Senn 3:34 

think that people really value numbers, and they value models. And they find pleasure in the more objective things. And I actually found myself I went to the testing Bureau UCLA in my junior year, and I said, Hey, I don't feel right. And they did all these tests. They said, We don't know what you're doing an engineering school, you shouldn't be a salesman or a minister. So I did go on to get my MBA, but I used my engineering skills, teamed up with a kid named Jim Delaney, another engineering student, and a professor, and started the original cendol ne, which is a retail consulting firm. And what I quickly discovered even there, we were trying to improve processes like supply chain, and I found that it was easier to decide on change and to get people to change. And most organizations were like dysfunctional families. They had turf issues and trust issues and people who didn't feel appreciated and valued and recognized and got my epiphany. We were hired by a guy named Sam at a place called Walmart to design your original supply chain when he had this vision of bringing low cost goods to rural America. And he was an evangelist in terms of this purpose he had and it was so easy to work there. The spirit was so high, kind of like you created David the organization that work with you on this that positive we can do it can do attitude was there. At the same time we were hired by Woolworth in New York to do the same thing. And I'd fly from Bentonville to New York and be like going to the morgue just a bunch of old guys sit around a table and their only purpose was to maintain the status quo. And I said to myself, you know, that will come in Bentonville is going to take over the world, and this is gonna die. There's something you didn't teach me in school. And that began my journey. To really understand this intangible part of organization, it really makes a difference, what we now call today culture.

David Novak 5:17 

It's interesting, you went to college, then you went, you were an engineer, and in the aerospace industry, when you went into that job, how did you like it? And what did you really discover? Okay,

Larry Senn 5:27 

I quickly discovered that I hated it. That was the age of Sputnik, that'll date me, there were very few engineers with MBAs who could help manage projects. And so they gave me more money than I thought I'd ever make in my life. And I got there, but I hated it. And I knew I had to get out of there, because I saw my bosses and they were kind of locked into their lifestyle. And I said, now's the time to escape. So I left and went back and joined the professor at UCLA and started the consulting work. That's where I began that journey.

David Novak 5:54 

Yeah. And you really focused on leadership development, then you seem to have found your passion by doing something that you didn't like, necessarily, it took it to an area that you do, like, what coaching can you give to people on how to find their passion?

Larry Senn 6:07 

All too often we get into ruts in terms of our career for me, because my father was an engineer. And he talks about engineering, I thought I should do that. You have to find what really inspires you what moves you what gets you out of bed in the morning. And I found it wasn't engineering, it really was having people be at their best. How do you help people live life? How do you help leaders be their very best selves. And that's what really became my inspiration.

David Novak 6:35 

As you mentioned, you started sin Delaney. And it was originally around the idea of process improvement, which comes from your engineering background. And then you learn from Walmart, this whole thing about the heart of leadership, did you get to spend any time with Sam Walton?

Larry Senn 6:49 

Yes, I did to see him in his famous Saturday morning meetings where he would be up there talking about their purpose, and what they could do and how he wanted his efficient organization. But happy box because that way we could serve people. That was an inspiration to me. And I really, for the first time, I saw an inspirational leader that struck me then,

David Novak 7:08 

you know, and then this whole idea of getting the right work environment to get people to be their very best self, you define that his culture? Is that your definition of culture? I never really liked that word too much, Larry, it sounds sounds too much like a germ to me. But what would be your truest definition of culture?

Larry Senn 7:24 

It's very simple. To me. It's the way people behave and the way they work together. Do they appreciate one another? Do they work together collaboratively? Do they blame others? Or are they accountable? So it really is? How do people behave and work together? It's also a part of what's the spirit there, because one of the essential behaviors is to have a positive spirit, an organization that people feel appreciated and valued.

David Novak 7:45 

I'm sure you remember this, but I remember getting a letter from you. And you were talking about sin, Delaney. And at that point in time, I was president of KFC and I was on this journey to really build a great culture. And I was doing more of a one man band using my own personal capabilities to get that done. But I realized I couldn't do it by myself. And I needed a process and just from the grace of God, this letter shows up for Larry said, I said, Well, I'm gonna talk this guy named Larry sin. So you come to talk to me at KFC, you had a real process that we could follow to help fire up the organization and build a culture. But the first thing you recommended, was this off site that we did in Blackberry, Tennessee, you felt it was important for us to go off as a team and get to know each other? Why did you feel that shared experience was a great way to start the initiative?

Larry Senn 8:33 

Yes, it's to begin with, I remember sitting across the table from you. And you said something to effect to me, if I can really create a recognition culture here and get people the right place, I can really change this place. And I was taken by your vision of doing that. But back to the story. After I discovered my passion at Walmart, I went back to school, I went and found a professor at USC had written a paper on this thing called organizational character personality. And I said to him, you don't have to understand this to help organizations. He said, Well, we all know, sir, no one's ever study it. What if we paid your way to the doctoral program. And that began the world's first research published on corporate culture. But to your point, the central finding that dissertation was that organizations tend to become shadows of their leaders, their senior teams, and that's where the term shadow leader came from out of that research. And so I knew we had to get a CEO and senior team to model the behaviors they want to live the culture they wanted, in order to get it down the organization. So we started with you and your team out there and blackberry farms.

David Novak 9:34 

And one of the things, Larry, that I found to be so powerful about what you did is you developed a number of different exercises that you would have each of the team members go through together, and then you'd share the outcome. Can you talk about a couple of those kinds of exercises and why you think that's important?

Larry Senn 9:51 

When I first wrote my dissertation on culture, the question was, how do you change habits of adults? How do you get successful people who may be too territorial or to control learners are wanting power. And the normal models of defining it and reinforcing it don't work very well, you can tell somebody to listen, they will still listen. But I ran into a social science guy named Kurt Lewin, who said, people need epiphany. They need aha moments in order to change behaviors. It's like the guy who had a bad diet and didn't exercise and has a heart attack, all of a sudden, they're walking around the block and eating greens. Or the guy who didn't listen, his wife divorces him and says, you jerk you never listen to me, they may do better the second time around. So I said, Hey, I'm an engineer. Why don't I engineer a series of exercises, which create a Tiffany's around things like accountability, collaboration, positive spirit, coaching and feedback. And that's where it came from. And so that's the heart of what we call inside base, or experiential learning, which is really the engine that drives our culture shaping work. And there are a number of fascinating exercise we played. One that's interesting is where people sit around tables and try to assemble pieces into a square. And you put them under a lot of time pressure, and they go on knee jerk. So people who try to take over and control over control, people who hoard too much keep way too many pieces, and nobody else can finish. So the game is a mirror of people's life that will make them sit back and reflect on that and write a page on how did the way you play that game it how's that a mirror of how you play your life, at work and at home. And people get some aha out of that. So there's a whole series of those that are part of the process.

David Novak 11:28 

I remember one that had a big impact on me was the A CDS. Yes. So

Larry Senn 11:33 

most people are too righteous. And one of the keys to not getting old, to being successful, to being agile, to be innovative, is really to realize that we miss things that we need a team to see things. It's your team together team apart notion, David that you put out in the world there, which is a wonderful notion. That's just how people are wired. And so in this case, when we put up a paragraph and say, count the number of letters in there, everybody misses it. And the reason this is a scientific reason they miss it, because they click into that engineering left brain. And you can't see it unless you have some of your more human right brain clicked in. I've had CFOs bet me $10,000 That they were right, and they were wrong. And so people need a bit of humility to learn and that helps them get it.

David Novak 12:15 

Yeah, I remember what did was the real is that you missed the F's, which is the ofs because you phonetically pronounced of is O V versus of and you zip right through that, well, I was one of those guys, I was ready to bet the ranch, the epiphany I had was that the passion and the conviction that I have, while it's a great strength could also be something that can overwhelm others and that I might be wrong. And then I needed to look at the detail a lot more than maybe I did at times. So that was very, very powerful. You know, Larry, you taught me the importance of getting your mindset, right to make good decisions, and the concept that I love, and you wrote a fabulous book on it. And I recommend all the listeners to that, that you read his book on the mood elevator that you wrote, can you give us a little bit of a cliff notes version of what you mean by mood elevator climbing up the mood elevator.

Larry Senn 13:01 

So we all know, we have times and we're at our best kind of top of our game, where the ideas are flowing, where we hear people better. And in times like that we have certain kinds of feelings like I'm more hopeful and optimistic. When I'm at my best, I tend to listen better, I'm more compassionate, I'm more innovative, I'm more grateful for life, I'm more creative. There are other times when we're really off our game. And for me, I know I'm heading south, when I start to get really easily irritated and bothered, I become too impatient. And then I might drop down to self righteous, then I'm even get down to anger. And if I go all the way to the bottom, I get down to depression. And so we all write this thing I call the mood elevator in life all the way from gratitude, the top to depression at the bottom. And the key is that you can do something about that, that you are at your best when you're at curious and above. And in fact that level curious is a fascinating one. Because most people live in judgment, not curiosity. So let's say somebody in the team does something you don't understand. You can immediately go to what's wrong with them. You can go to irritated, bothered, or you can say to yourself, hmm, I wonder how they see that differently than I do? Maybe I should ask a question and find out. Which kind of do you better? Well, living in curiosity is a lot better. So the mood elevator, it's almost as if we have a human dashboard. I never leave home without my pocket card. That shows me the levels. Because if I can pay attention to where I am, I can do something about it. You find

David Novak 14:22 

that you know the best leaders really hone in on self awareness and understand themselves.

Larry Senn 14:27 

Yes, if they don't, then we have all the things we're seeing because that's lack of motional intelligence. So being aware of where you are, in fact, you shared one of the principles there. Don't make decisions if you're not in a good state of mind. If you're absolutely sure you need to tell somebody something you probably shouldn't tell them right that because your thinking is unreliable. So your thinking gets more and more reliable as the day wears on, David.

David Novak 14:50 

A lot of these things you talk about are soft skills, but you also very performance oriented because these soft skills lead to the harder results and one of the things that you talked about I was the accountability ladder. And that was a very powerful exercise in our company.

Larry Senn 15:05 

Can you talk a little bit about that? Sure, I think the world can be divided into winners and whiners into those who complain about things and those who make things happen. So it's having what I call an accountability mindset was really embodying the notion of what more can I do no matter what the obstacles are. And so just like the vertical dimensions of the mood elevator, we have vertical dimensions in the accountability ladder at the bottom is kind of blaming, or excuses, or wait and hope. And you finally get up to acknowledge reality, and then to finding solutions, then to make it happen. So if you can get a person or an organization with all their energy into acknowledging reality and up and have almost none down at blaming one another, making excuses proving they're wrong, then it just it unleashes an enormous amount of energy, I'd say that probably a third of the energy is wasted. Most organizations, by people either blaming others, or complaining about things, they can't change anyway,

David Novak 16:01 

these concepts, the mood elevator, the accountability, ladder, broken squares, you know, looking for the F's, these are powerful concepts. How did you come up with these,

Larry Senn 16:11 

most of them came out of my life experience. I mean, the other one, we didn't talk about that probably a million people around the world have hooked on to his be here. Now, this notion of living life in the present of being in a meeting, when you're in a meeting, not in your device of going home to a loved one, and listening to their life, not still thinking about your life. And so this notion of a quieter mind is there. And so, I learned that when, for example, from raising kids, I had three kids like five, seven, and nine. And I was too busy running the business traveling too much. And I was flying a kite one day out in front of the house. And anybody going by would have said isn't that great as a father and son. But where I was, was totally into my head worrying about the next day. And my son just grabbed me. He said, Dad, dad, would you really play with me today? Would you really play with me, it was like a bolt of lightning through my heart because he'd caught me and I wasn't there. I said, this is a powerful notion, I need to teach this to the world. So that's where that one came from. But all of them came from someplace, you know, the blue chip exercise about priorities that came in working with a sales group that was working hard, but on the wrong things. So they all really came somehow out of my life experience, I could visualize these things, and then convert them to a five step learning methodology to make them happen. What would

David Novak 17:22 

be those five steps quickly?

Larry Senn 17:24 

Well, the first isn't, you can't just explain something to somebody, they've got to have an experience, you have to have an aha moment. And that's what they're designed to do. So don't talk about win, lose, put them in something where they try to kill somebody, and win and make the other person lose. Once you've done that, stop them, catch them in their tracks, and have them reflect upon that. In fact, in life, if we would reflect upon things more often, when things happen to us, we'd be wiser. Once you've done that, share about it, talk to somebody else about it. And so that we have people sharing one another what I just learned, I just realized that when I'm too excited, I don't make the decisions if I get too excited. Finally, in the end, you convert it to action. But in the first step really is how does this apply to our business? How can we use this to get better customer satisfaction, better results, and then finally, create a commitment to what you're going to do? So that's the learning model.

David Novak 18:11 

You know, Larry, you said, how does this apply to your business. And when it comes to the culture and creating the right work environment, you always talk about not just necessarily having a set of values, but making sure that the values you have are relevant to the business itself. What's your feeling on that?

Larry Senn 18:28 

You did one of the better jobs of any of our clients in history, when you created the initially how we work together principles and how we wind together principles. You're good at naming things too. And when I say culture is how people behave and work together, you had those how we work together principles, and they pretty well laid out people will be accountable, people will appreciate and recognize others. So you define the culture you needed. And if you can't define it, it's hard to create it. So all of our work with clients to help them clarify, sometimes modify their behavior set, whether you call them working principles or values to define the culture.

David Novak 19:02 

And I think what we did, would you help us get to was what are the behaviors that are in your best restaurants? So being in the restaurant business, we looked at the restaurant managers who were the most successful when we said, okay, they had these things happen in the restaurant, people were accountable, there was positive energy, there was recognition. And so we took those kinds of characteristics and call them are how we work together principles. And that was much more direct than talking about values and work very well.

Larry Senn 19:29 

So what we do is we while people may have a category like FedEx, for example, their collaborative value is I'm a vital link in a chain of success, because we got to deliver the package. So everybody has to see themselves as a vital link in the chain of success of getting that package or the next day. So that's how they defined it.

David Novak 19:47 

Your basic thesis as you start out by getting your senior team aligned and then you as leaders have to cascade that throughout the organization. You know, how critical is it for you to take your how we work together principles are Whatever you want to call them and get the rest of the organization going through these exercises and self discovery and the culture drivers,

Larry Senn 20:07 

yes, we actually sat down a few years ago after doing this 30 Some years and said, what are the underlying principles, and that's one of the principles. Principle number one is purposeful leadership has got to be led by the senior team, they've got to have a purpose. And they've got to define their how they work together principles. But the second principle is personal change, they've got to have some epiphanies. But the third one is momentum and mass. It's like overcoming an organ transplant, cultures resist change. And so unless you get this ball rolling, unless you're going to get a head of steam, as you did take it from layer to layer to layer to layer, and getting leaders involved in that, then it's hard to overcome the old culture. So that that's the third principle. The fourth one is focused sustainability, how do you keep it going for 1015 years, 20 years to make that happen? So it's one of the principles

David Novak 20:52 

if you had to pick one element, I mean, you've got four basic principles, but he had to pick one thing that was the key to really creating a powerful performance culture, what would that element be?

Larry Senn 21:03 

It'd be in two parts. One, I think you need to have that personal change, cultures don't change people do. So I think you need to have that shift in people. And that shift really needs to be essentially them living life in the higher states of the mood elevator, where they are more appreciative, where they create a positive environment, where they recognize people where they listen, where they're creative. And so it's really those epiphanies people need to have to change. Otherwise, it's just another program. It's just another program of the day,

David Novak 21:30 

can you actually build a great culture without the leader not playing an active role in driving it?

Larry Senn 21:36 

I don't think so. Not sustainably. I mean, if you had a hell of a senior team, in spite of the leader, you could make some progress. But in time, unless it's a CEO led process is General Joe Robles at USAA. A client that has the highest customer loyalty in America said, he said, I'm the chief culture officer. And that's where it needs to be. You are the chief culture officer.

David Novak 21:57 

Larry, you studied leadership, you know more about anybody I know, do you think leaders are born? Or can they be made,

Larry Senn 22:03 

they can be made, I mean, interesting example, about the power of this process, I got a letter from the wife of the CFO of a major Midwest Bank, and she said, Larry, I'm not sure who you sent home, but you can keep the other guy. So and there's an example of someone who really had pretty well been written off even in the company's being kind of a curmudgeon who came to life and saw a different light. People can do that, you know, here's my belief and actually goes back to my mother. And that is, I think we all come into the world, as those grandkids of yours. They're curious, aren't they? They're loving, aren't they? They're trusting, aren't they? That's how they are. And we all have that within us. And over time, we begin to develop these defense mechanisms. We defend ourselves, we make excuses, we blame others, we do all these things. And so it's in every one of us, it's a great song to that effect. It's in every one of us, it's there. And part of I see our role and my role in the world is to help people really get back to the best of who they are. The real core way that you do that is through this self awareness and helping people getting their personal epiphanies, exactly. And having a live life and a higher plane. It's interesting, if you look at the mood elevator, and the lower floors, the mood elevator, it's all about me. And the upper floors is more about what I'm doing for others. And unless we're in service to others, whether it's in a quick service restaurant or a hospital or wherever they are, or to our own employees and let's we're in serve something bigger than us, we will not be the best we can be.

David Novak 23:31 

What do you think really separates a truly great leader from just an okay leader, solid leader,

Larry Senn 23:37 

prior to table stakes, or they need to have the capabilities to be strategic and to make decisions. But beyond that, they need to really align people they need to really bring people along. I think that's another one your great books, you know, taking people with you, if they can learn to take people with them, doesn't matter how smart you are, or how good your strategy is, if you can't bring people along no matter what size department function organization, no matter what level you are, you've got to bring your people along. And that means you got to listen to him, You got to recognize him, you got to coach him, you've got to develop them, those things are paramount.

David Novak 24:10 

I know this is really a challenging question to ask somebody who thinks so deeply about this topic. But what do you think would be the single biggest thing and single best thing that a leader could do to bring energy to an organization

Larry Senn 24:23 

appreciate their people, if they just spent more time catching people doing things right? And appreciate it miss that we could do one thing? That'd be the most powerful thing that could do.

David Novak 24:36 

Right? Roll recognition definitely shows that you care. And there's no question about that. Your analogy between Walmart and Woolworth was really good. You know, what was the worst thing you saw at a culture like Woolworth

Larry Senn 24:49 

Oh god, I'm gonna literally sabotage I mean, people would actually work to make things not work. There was resentment and people are very self centered and very territory. real and very victimized and low energy, it's just all those things came together. And that's not a good culture.

David Novak 25:08 

And those are the traits of probably the worst leaders that you could think of. Right?

Larry Senn 25:11 

Yes, that's right. They're self centered, they're not empowering, they hold too much power themselves, they take credit, they don't give credit. They don't make people feel good.

David Novak 25:20 

Yeah, you've helped so many companies, and so many leaders like myself, you know, achieve their potential or, or at least get part of it done. You know, you have your own company, which is pretty significant in and of its own right now, it's not, you're not a one man band, how have you practice what you preach in your own company. Essentially,

Larry Senn 25:37 

if you come to send money, every single person from our receptionist to our mailroom will tell you their personal purpose. So we have a purpose, which is to make a positive impact on the world, by inspiring leaders to create thriving cultures. And every person is sent on he goes through a training to help them find their purpose, as it aligns with our purpose. We're very purpose driven organization, we spend a lot of time on development and coaching. And coaching and feedback is really a critical thing, not just I appreciate you, but you could be even more effective. Our average tenure of our consultants is probably close to 20 years. They just don't leave. And because they liked the environment, because they're learning growing. And also I think they get intrinsic satisfaction in doing the work. So if you can have people get satisfaction from the work they do, that's a powerful thing.

David Novak 26:23 

What was the highest point in your career? I probably is what's going to happen tomorrow. But you know, what was the highest point in your career? And, and when you had that, if you look back, what did you do to keep the pressure on elevating performance?

Larry Senn 26:36 

Okay, you know, I've had several high points. One is when I had the epiphany, X was in a personal training I was going through, to devote my life to creating a culture shaping firm, the energy that came out of that in the years where I created all those modules and began to make it happen. A second one was we did our first CEO level session for the Broadway department stores. We've been working within the store. And I finally said to the CEO, he said, Can you fix our stores, and I said, Only if we can start with you in the senior team. And we did our first CEO level intervention, and oh, my god, the Broadway increase market share by 30% in California, and I said, You Rica, we have something here. And that's we actually spun it out as a separate company, from the retail Consulting Group. And so that was really a major high point in my life, and in terms of making that happen.

David Novak 27:23 

So when you go out, you spin this thing off, you're higher than a kite. How do you get enough juice to get to the next level?

Larry Senn 27:31 

Well, part of my philosophy is that our mental well being and our physical well being are interconnected. And so part of how I maintain my energy and life and incidentally, David, I'm a nationally ranked undefeated in the ad and over category and triathlons in America. So I'm really work hard at this.

David Novak 27:50 

You're amazing. You're my hero, I swear to God, there's no question

Larry Senn 27:55 

my life is I've had this belief since I was young, that if I'm going to serve others, my family first, and then others, I need to be at my best myself, I need to take care of myself. So I've always been really conscious of energy of diet of sleep, of exercise of learning how to have a quiet mind and not worry of meditating all these things that I think if I really have a belief of it, take care of myself, I'll be at my best. And that'll also give my energy gratitudes. The other one, the exercise you do has scientific validity behind this is called the three blessings and is written up by Dr. Seligman, who wrote the book flourish.

David Novak 28:30 

Well, I was going to trademark that myself.

Larry Senn 28:33 

Okay. But it can be a small thing, like it was a great pillow in the hotel last night, or my wife made me a salmon sandwich today before I came to work, you know, I'm blessed by that. But it's just living life in gratitude, gives you energy, and then seeing you're helping others. And making a difference gives you energy, having a purpose gives you energy. And you know, it's not all Pollyanna people save me sometimes got this mood. All right, sounds kind of idealistic. What happens when the times are really bad? Well, back in, you talked about the good times and the bad times back at the end of the.com, boom, around 2000, we actually decided in order to grow, then we were going to become part of a roll up of consulting firms called Pro Vaughn. So we sold the company for all stock to provide. But within 90 days, we hadn't done a good enough due diligence. Pro Vaughn started to collapse. We're the only money making one there. And the stock went from $26 to $1. So there it was my life's work. My company worth many, many millions of dollars, gone. I didn't own it anymore. So that was bad enough at the same time. I was getting on a plane going to Hawaii and the doctor call said come back. He says you got a brain tumor. So that was the second thing. The next week my wife announced she was pregnant. We've been wanting to have a child she was 52. I was 65 had a brain tumor. I'd lost my company and that was not good. But you know what's interesting is I was still a blessed man. It was operable tumor. I can always make money. Have a Family that loves me. So I got back to gratitude for life. And that got me my wisdom back, we bought the company back for not a whole lot. We made it stronger than ever out of that habit, a child who's now a six foot one volleyball player named Logan, who has a beautiful son and all worked out. I think I could have had a nervous breakdown that, David, but I didn't.

David Novak 30:20 

Yeah, and but how long did it take you Larry to get your mood up? I mean, when you get something like that is like, boom, you know, how long did it take you to get to your recovery stage?

Larry Senn 30:29 

Probably four months, you know, I probably went through a month of just beating the heck out of myself for selling the company and make doing that wrong. And then then I went through why knee? You know, there's no known reason for acoustic neuroma. But I had one, and why me I take care of myself unhealthy, when I could find it, let go of all that blaming, and wanting things to be different. And just come back to the present and get quiet. Then I saw him within my three blessings. And once I saw them, I became effective again and could solve all the problems.

David Novak 30:58 

That's great. Do you see any differences? Larry, in the qualities it takes to lead today versus 20 years ago?

Larry Senn 31:05 

I do. You know, I think there's maybe too much made of millennials. But I think that the reality is, is that the hierarchical do what I say? era is gone. People need to feel more a part of things, they need to have more latitude, they need to have more flexibility, they need to feel more involved, but the core is still there. I mean, I believe the principles we teach are universal, that there will always be a need for recognition, feel feeling valued, if not more today than before. For me, it was just if you're working hard and sweating, you must be doing good job, you know, my dad taught me. So I think it's even more need for development of people skills, of team skills, of behavioral skills, of appreciation skills, I think there are going to be more and more and more needed. And I also think that we need for more agility and flexibility need to really be open to new things and trying new things

David Novak 31:56 

in this podcast, you are like on fire of it. It's fun to listen to you. But I have to tell you, I've always considered you to be a very quiet, unassuming, humble guy. And I look at you now, you know, and you're talking about what you do. How did you get the courage and just the conviction to really become the company's number one salesman?

Larry Senn 32:17 

You know, I think it's true. I think I'm probably by nature, an introvert. I mean, I like my quiet time. I like to sit and watch the waves break. And I do enjoy that. But I am a learned extrovert because I this lights my fire. When I start talking about the work we do, I light up otherwise, that can be pretty quiet, calm guy. And whenever I'm going to make a decision, I really take a few deep breaths. And get quiet because I believe that's where you get your most wisdom. When I get really quiet. That's when I'm in touch with I say universal wisdom ideas even beyond me. So I really value quietness. But when I'm talking about this, I just I'm an evangelist, like Sam was back in the early days of Walmart.

David Novak 32:59 

What advice can you give leaders to get out of their comfort zone,

Larry Senn 33:03 

start to take a look at the habits and ruts you're in. Look at something different you can do even within the job you have, find something different, you can get excited about, try to find something that lights your fire, because that will begin to move you who does commissioning research with University of Michigan on a thing called thriving and courteous and thriving people. And one of those characteristics is purpose. One is this positive spirit. But the third one is a growth mindset. So I think the idea of being really curious, I mean, I have a fascination with longevity, as you might imagine. And so I get probably six different newsletters from Stanford and Harvard Medical School, but I'm always learning about things that have to do with health. But I'm also curious about the mind and the brain. And so I learn about that, and how people learn. And now learning modalities going on. And so I think this idea of really begin to be a student never stopped being a student never stopped being curious.

David Novak 34:01 

You know, Larry, most people, they hate conflict. I mean, absolutely hate conflict, yet, every leader has got to deal with it. So what's the best way for a leader to handle a conflict situation?

Larry Senn 34:13 

Well, what's interesting is that I believe that they need to be handled, but I don't necessarily see them as conflict. What they usually are, is people have different points of view about things. And we don't see things the same way. And those exercises like missing the F's or the claws, where we put up this sheet of pictures of 20 different things and ask people what they see, everybody sees different things. If people can can understand that everybody is just doing what makes sense to them. And they see things differently than the way you go about approaching differences is resolve conflict without conflict, if you can get people to be trusting, and this whole notion of assuming positive intention in teammates, not assuming motives, and then dealing with things so conflict resolution isn't bam bam, bam conflict resolution is people being more are trusting Think positive intentions, knowing other people see things they don't see. And really having dialogue about that if you can do that in a healthy way you will resolve whatever it is,

David Novak 35:10 

what coaching can you give to young aspiring leaders on what the best way is to provide coaching as they become a supervisor and start having people work for him,

Larry Senn 35:18 

here's what I've always found with you or anybody else, if somebody believes that I'm coaching, believes that I really see value in them, and believe in them, and I have some ideas that can help them be more effective, they want to hear it, if they think I don't like them, I'm critical him and I will try to give them feedback, they won't hear it. So the key is, first of all, catch them doing some things, right? And make sure they realize you value them and appreciate them. Once you've done that, then we think the phrase, you know, are you open to some feedback, I'd like to share some ideas with you, I think could make even more effective and get some permission even that way. Then given the feedback. And so I'd say become a feedback machine, I appreciate this, you were more effective here, I appreciate this, you could even do even better at that. If they can get that diet of both of those in some balance, then you're going to really develop them and they'll take it.

David Novak 36:07 

I listen to you talk about if you do this, you can be even more this or that. I didn't hear any but I didn't hear any buts in those statements. No, but

Larry Senn 36:15 

says and right. That's true, you know, who doesn't have great qualities, and who couldn't be even more effective, all of us. That's just us. That's just people,

David Novak 36:26 

their butts are real momentum killer in any phrase, and then it is yeah,

Larry Senn 36:30 

they stop hearing. They wait for the bomb to drop. You know,

David Novak 36:35 

you are constantly staying fresh and honing your skills. What's got you most excited today that you're learning about?

Larry Senn 36:42 

Well, we never had a way in the past to truly in a highly effective way to get to every single employee in an organization. Xe the head of innovation is send Laney, who's got the send jeans is my son, Darren, and he primarily with that little bit infamy. He's working on this process that will get our concepts in a really interesting learning way to every single employee in very large organizations right down the front line. And I'm really excited because we're going to touch more people that way, and affect companies even more. And so that's my current passion.

David Novak 37:12 

Yeah, that's been something that all leaders I think are working on is how do you really get to the front line so that the customer really feels it? Is technology going to play a huge role in that

Larry Senn 37:22 

interesting, it is not now we're working with some technology that will support that. But the fact is, the people you want to get to don't all have technology, working with an organization like Caesars Entertainment with eight hotels, and all the housekeeping in all the valleys or they don't have company computers. So we're actually going to fascinate infographics way with simple messages, and then little huddles, or dialogues among people, because you can get people to look at something and then talk to their colleagues about it. It's amazing what comes out of that.

David Novak 37:52 

Yeah, I'm on the Comcast board. And I went to one of the call centers and, and we're doing huddles, and it was you know, those huddles are so powerful, because people are sharing their experiences, which is really, really fantastic.

Larry Senn 38:03 

So if you couple that with flipped classroom by getting content to people in advance and say, sometime this month, we're going to talk about the mood elevator. And here's a couple of questions. How could this help our guest experience? How could they help this team? Now, when you come together in your huddle and talk about that, it simulates the Insight Learning methodology, because people get to think about it, reflect on and then talk about it.

David Novak 38:23 

You're building this business, you're taking it to the next level, you've got your family that you're passionate about. You're a triathlete. You know, how do you balance all this stuff? You mentioned to be here now theory. But how do you bring all this together in your life without and have it have a extra ounce? before you fall asleep at night?

Larry Senn 38:44 

Well, you know, just like you did you surround yourself with wonderful people who do a lot you don't try to over control it. You focus on the 8020 rule, what are those things that really make a difference? And not all the things but above all, you still take care of yourself, so I get enough sleep? I think we do a lot of things we don't have to do. I think we waste a lot of energy. We don't have to waste being bothered by things being irritated by things. So keep it in a more quiet mind that doesn't sweat the small stuff, is I think one of the keys to making that happen for me.

David Novak 39:10 

And you mentioned earlier about the low point in your career is when you sold the company the stock went to the tank and you know you knew you made the wrong decision and and now you're a part of Heidrick and struggles. So how did you convince yourself that you were picking the right partner?

Larry Senn 39:27 

Well, first of all, I knew that what we had needed to have a broader audience in the world in my lifetime anyway. But I wanted to really get the message to more people. We didn't have enough of a global presence. For example, we've got an office in the UK, we didn't. And so we need to find a partner and it was global. We also need to find a partner where ideally new CEOs and CHR O 's are coming in because they always want to work in the culture, new leaders like you were at KFC. And so we said well, actually it should be a search partner be great. And we liked the culture we ran into as we talked to different search firms at Heidrick and they've been a great partner of ours.

David Novak 40:00 

You look at your business in your life going forward, what do you see as your unfinished business?

Larry Senn 40:06 

I would have said a couple years ago getting the message down. But in writing the book, the mood elevators more about kind of my journey, and my beliefs, my underlying fundamental beliefs there. So when I wrote that book, that is one of my things on my bucket list that I want to get done, I'd like to do some things more in the health world, I'd like to publish you're asked me to write a book called Secrets of an 80 year old triathlete, kind of sharing with the world hottie how you do that? Because people say, How do you do that? I'd like people to have an answer for that. And so my personal purpose, David is to provide understanding and inspiration for more and more people to live life at their best mentally, emotionally, physically and spiritually. And that's what I'm working towards. I think I've done a pretty good job on mentally and emotionally, and in my personal life, and the spiritual. But I still haven't done impacted the world enough in terms of physically. So that's one thing on my bucket list, getting that

David Novak 40:58 

personal purposes is really key to fulfilling life. It is absolutely. And Larry, I have to tell you that as we wrap this up, you have enriched my life in so many others, by helping me understand myself better helped me be better leader. So thank you very much. Okay, thank you.

Had the top of the show, I talked about how Larry helps others be at their best. But the only way ideas really take shape is when the people that we lead, embrace them and make them their own. And the thing that I really love about Larry and his process is that he developed training tools that would allow people to decide for themselves what is really important. Let me tell you about one that I just absolutely love. You know, Larry had this training, where we talked about what kind of moods we have throughout the day. And guess what we make our worst decisions when we're angry and resentful, and tired. But we make our best decisions when we're grateful. So for me, and everybody else in our company, we tried to keep that in mind, whenever we were making big decisions, we tried to get our mood elevator up, get in that state of gratitude. So we'd make our decisions with the clearest possible mind. And the other thing is, as individually, we tried to go to work with an attitude of gratitude. And for me, personally, I wake up every day and I write down three things at a minimum that I'm grateful for, so that I can move my mood elevator up. And you know, when you get in that state of gratitude, somehow people just like being around you, and the environment just gets so much better. And Larry taught all of us how to really make that happen. So here's what I want you to do this week, I want you to use his mood elevator tool. And I want you to start every day with gratitude. Before you even go to work. Before you jump in emails or your full day of meetings, take five minutes and write down a few things that you're grateful for. This will help you get your day started on a positive note. But I have another thing I want you to do. Think about the mood elevator every time you make a decision. And I guarantee you that will help you get into a state of mind that will help you make your best decisions. I have to tell you, I think Larry Ellison is an absolute genius. He really knows how to create work environments where people can be their best. So do you want to know how leaders lead? What we learned today is that great leaders build cultures that help people be at their best. Thanks again for tuning in to another episode of how leaders lead where every Thursday you get to listen in while I interview some of the best leaders in the world. I make it a point to give you something simple on each episode that you can apply to your business so that you will become the best leader you can be. See you next week.