Welcome to How Leaders Lead, where every week you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world. I break down the key learning so that by the end of the episode, you'll have something simple you can apply as you develop into a better leader. That's what this podcast is all about. Well, I hate to break it to you, but if you're a leader, you're going to face obstacles and setbacks. What does it really take to overcome them? And could they actually help you succeed? Well, I think you'll find some insight into those questions today as I talk with Lisa Lutoff-Perlo. She recently stepped down after nine years as the first ever woman CEO of Celebrity Cruises. She's grown the brand and the bottom line, but let me tell you, it has not been easy. She faced rejection, gender bias, and of course, the COVID-19 pandemic. But Lisa is one of the most persistent leaders I've ever talked to. I mean, she just does not take no for an answer. She's got the kind of mentality that turns obstacles into opportunities. And she's going to remind you that persistence pays off. So here's my conversation with my good friend and soon to be yours, Lisa Lutoff -Perlo. Well, let's start out by you just telling us about the Royal Caribbean Group. Yeah, the Royal Caribbean Group is a publicly traded company, New York Stock Exchange, S&P 500. And under the umbrella of the corporation, there are three cruise lines, Royal Caribbean International Celebrity Cruises, which I was president and CEO of, and Silver Seas, which is the ultra luxury brand. I've been with the company for 39 years, started out with the Royal Caribbean brand and then transitioned over to the Celebrity brand and into the amazing role of president and CEO of Celebrity. That's fantastic. And you became the CEO of Celebrity Cruises in 2014. Tell us about the business you took over and what it is today. I took over the Celebrity Fleet. It was a fleet of about 12 ships, it's 16 ships now, sails all over the world. And it was performing fairly well when I took it over. But after nine years of transforming the brand and repositioning it, we transformed the financial performance of the brand as well. I'm very proud of the awards that the fleet had won and the great experiences that we provide to our guests. I understand you asked for the CEO job three times. What motivated you to keep putting yourself out there? Yeah, well, I think it took me a while to decide what I wanted and if I wanted to be president and CEO of one of the brands, and then once I did, I'm a person who's pretty determined and I always look at no as an opportunity to turn it into a yes, whether it's in my career or in my marriage, whatever. You know, whenever I bump into a no, it's my motivation to make it a yes. And I really wanted the role once I had decided decades into my career that that's what I wanted to do. And I was determined to do whatever it took to get there. And I was determined to keep asking until I turned the no into a yes. So yeah, it took me three times, David, but it wasn't the only time I was rejected. You know, I started in sales back in 1985. So rejection is something that, you know, I have faced one or two times throughout my career and I just looked at this as just one more chance to turn it around. Now when you get turned down for the role of CEO, you know, somebody is going to give you a reason why maybe you're not ready. You know, what did you learn about yourself when you were getting turned down? And what did you do about it? Yeah. And that was the answer that the feeling was that I wasn't ready, even though I felt I was ready and interestingly enough, the two men that vacated the president and CEO role that I was asking for recommended me for the position. They said I was ready. I was the best person for the job that I should be promoted into it and yet the person that was ultimately making the decision, the chairman and CEO felt differently and he didn't feel that I was ready. And his was the one mind I needed to change. And one of the things that he said to me after we had gone through this back and forth and he finally decided I was ready, probably, I want to say eight or nine months after my first ask, he told me that the way I handled the situation was one of the things that he truly admired about me during that time in that I let him know exactly how I felt about his decision. But he described that I did it in an elegant way and I did it in a professional way and I still stated my disagreement and I still told him I was going to prove him wrong eventually and I went about doing that. But I think that the way I handled it was one of the things that ultimately turned my no into a yes. And you know, Lisa, you've done so much to close the gender gap in the cruise line industry and I want to get into that a little bit later. You've also been part of some cutting edge innovations in the cruise line world . What did you do on a ship that had never been done before? What are you most proud of? Well, I'm most proud of the edge series of ships and that was the opportunity that presented itself in very early on in my tenure as president and CEO. When I came into the president and CEO role, I had previously been with celebrity for seven years running the entire hotel operation. I very much understood the brand. I understood the opportunity the brand had. I understood the opportunity to strengthen the positioning of the brand and where it was in the hierarchy of cruise brands in the world. And I thought that or I knew that this new series of ships that we were building was going to be the make or break for celebrity and it was going to once and for all be the one catalyst that was going to transform the brand and the financial performance of the brand. So given all of the experience I had in the industry, all of the experience I had in the company, I had a very clear vision about what these ships needed to be. And I wanted the ships to change the minds of people who felt like you couldn't get this luxurious experience at scale at sea. People have this misperception of cruising that I've been committed to changing for 39 years and I really wanted to do it with the edge series. And that really is the thing that I am most proud of. We hired world renowned designers. We significantly upgraded the type of dining experiences on the ships, the type of accommodations, the state room appointments. And when people told me that you couldn't do luxury at scale, I disagreed with them, profusely and said if Las Vegas can deliver luxury at scale, the cruise industry can do it and that's what we did with celebrity. You know, as I understand it, when you started to get into the design work for Edge, you weren't really that happy with the design themselves. And I'm sure you had people on your team who had been working on it. How have you learned how to coach your team in moments like this to help them see that there's another level that you can really strive for? That's a great question because when I went into my role, the ship was already designed. The general arrangement was already on the wall. It was already complete. About a year to a year and a half of design work had been put into the ship. But what's really interesting is when I took the role, our head of sales, and I tell the story, our head of sales kept telling me I needed to go see the general arrangement of Edge. And it was early December, the holidays were coming, the ship was already designed. I had been of the opinion that whatever that ship was going to be, it was going to be. And I didn't have an opportunity to influence it in any way. And she kept nagging me. And she was part of the team that I took over, but we had worked together for many years before when I was at Celebrity. And she knew as well as I did when I finally listened to her and walked in the room and looked at that general arrangement, that this was not the ship that Celebrity should be building and that we could do much better. So I was fortunate that the person who was so familiar with the brand and so passionate about the brand and was responsible for selling the brand felt exactly the same way I did. And then as I started having conversations with our head of new build and our head of the design team and even our chairman, they all agreed that we could do better. And so we started over again. And because I started my career in sales, I have a good way of influencing and telling a story that's pretty compelling and I felt that the strategy for this new series of ships needed to change if the transformation of Celebrity was really going to happen. And slowly but surely everybody came along. And when I gave them all the reasons why they ultimately agreed with me. And I had a lot of experience and I think that's one of the lessons that I learned that I think is really important for leaders. The more experience that you have, the more you understand customers, the more you understand your brand, the more you understand branding, the better you're going to be when you get into these roles because you're going to have the experience you need. And then you have the credibility that you need to change minds. And this was a big deal. Changing people's minds for this particular project was a big deal. We took a whole year to redesign that ship and we invested more money in it. So the pressure was on to truly make these ships pay off. You mentioned the customer. I'm really curious as to how you really think through the customer experience. Oh my goodness, that is a long process. Certainly one of the things that you have to look at is what your current customers are experiencing, what they like, what they're saying about the experience so that you can garner pieces of information that help you understand how you can continue to evolve and improve your brand and your experience. And I don't care what brand or experience any of us are responsible for, anywhere in the world, you have to continue to evolve because you need to keep bringing your customers back so they want new experiences. And if your brand is growing, our brand was growing with the Edge series by 72% over a five-year period of time. That is enormous growth and you need to bring new customers in if you're going to fill that capacity and charge the prices that you need to charge without diluting your revenues. And so when you think about what your current customers like, what they're looking for, and then you start asking other people what they think of cruising, what would convince them to cruise, especially in the socioeconomic environment and affluent guests that we were after, we were able to think about the experiences that we wanted to create. And I've said this quite often and the man that I worked for said this quite often as well. If Henry Ford asked his customers what they wanted, he would have just created a faster horse. So sometimes your customers don't always know what they want, but you just need to be, you know, watching trends and being ahead of the curve. And by the time you start thinking about a ship until you introduce it, you're looking at five or six years. So you've really got to be somewhat futuristic in your thinking and understanding where the consumer is going. So it's a complicated formula. You take in a lot of data points, a lot of information, a lot of intelligence. You scan the universe for what's going on in hospitality and you really have to look outside of your industry if you're going to convince people to try cruising if they haven't done that in the past. What was the biggest insight you got when you looked outside your industry? You know, that hospitality was elevating at such a rapid rate. And if you really wanted to attract consumers that were looking for luxurious experiences and the other thing I learned was that the definition of luxury had changed dramatically. People weren't looking for pretentious luxury or uncomfortable luxury or formal luxury. They were looking for a relaxed experience that was elegant and sophisticated but approachable. You know, the whole pretentious thing had gone away. And if you were looking at this space that you were trying to own all by yourself, I learned that you really had to tap into that new consumer mindset and how they approached or thought of luxury. And that's how we came up with the design and the experiences that we developed for the Celebrity Edge series. That's really interesting, Lisa. And now I want to take you back a little bit. What's the story from your childhood that shaped the kind of leader you are today? Oftentimes people ask me when I knew I was a leader and I always give the answer when I was two years old. And it's true because my first sister was born when I was two. And for some reason, I thought I was in charge from the minute she was born. And I just took on this leadership role in our family and I was the one who always got her ready for school and made her lunch and made sure she brushed her teeth and took care of her and took her by the hand everywhere we went and protected her. And then my other sister was born when I was 14 years old. And once again, I went into leadership mode. And when I was in school, I was in Catholic school. And then if the nuns had to leave the room, they always put me in charge. And I taught my other classmates the Palmer cursive method of writing. And I don't know. It was just something that was innate inside me. It didn't always make me popular with my sisters. And it didn't always make me popular in school, but it was just something that came really naturally to me. And so I went from two years old all the way to, I guess, where I am right now. And it's a lot of years later since I was two years old. That's for sure. You're obviously a great salesperson. As I learned about you, you studied to be in an accountant. How important was that in your career? Terribly important. On the time I was in sales, looking at my performance sheets and my revenues and where I was and where I needed to be and what kind of business I was bringing in. And if it was profitable and if it wasn't, all the way up to being responsible for the P&L, operating income, EBITDA, return on invested capital, capital investments at celebrity. And I was always good at math. I loved math. And so it was something that I really thought I wanted to do as a profession. But it was interesting when I was putting myself through school, I was wait ressing, waiting on tables. I've been in hospitality my entire life. And the customers, the guests I was serving would always ask me, what are you going to school for? What are you studying? And I would say accounting. And they would just look at me with this strange look on their face and they're like, nope, I don't see it. And I took Umbridge at that because I was like, well, why would you say that? That's what I've chosen. But they were right, although it's an amazing education and one that has served me well, it just wasn't in the stars for me to be an accountant. But I took everything I learned and applied it in the best way possible. Have you ever wondered what David is thinking as he interviews our guests each week? Or have you been interested in hearing David's take on some of the questions that he asks his guests? Well, I do. And I know a lot of you do too. My name is Koolah Callahan and together with David, I host the three more questions podcast that airs every Monday. These episodes are just about 15 minutes. And in them, I asked David three questions that dive deeper into the themes of his episode with his guests. David shares incredible insights and stories from his career leading young brands and all of his answers are super practical and inspiring. Like this great insight, David shared in one of our most recent three more questions episodes. The other thing is, is everybody has references. Don't rely on your headhunter to tell you what everybody thinks if you're using executive recruiters. Call the people directly that had direct contact with that person and ask them what they think of that person. Because you know what? It's easy for them to tell a headhunter or executive recruiter that, oh, he's a really good guy or she's a really good person. She's really terrific, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But when you call them up yourself and they know that someday they may have to look you in the eye, you're going to get the real skinny. They're going to tell you what that person's all about. So don't delegate the entire process. If you really have a key person you want to go after, go get them and make sure that you make that your top priority. And why not? Talent is everything. If you bring in a highly talented person, you're going to grow the company because we all know that formula success that I always talk about. Build people capability first, then you satisfy more customers and that's how you make more money. And that's a very common sense approach. But believe me, it's an approach that really does work when it comes to driving consistent results. Get the three more questions podcast in your feed each Monday and dive even deeper into the episodes you know and love. Just subscribe to How Leaders Lead wherever you get your podcasts. I'd like you to tell us about this guy named Art Gregory. Oh my goodness. So. Okay. Yeah. You want to talk about rejection. Let's go all the way back to when I first started in the company. The company that I'm in for 39 years and I've had an amazing career and did reject me quite a few times along my way. The first time was when I applied for a district sales manager position, which was my entry level sales position calling on travel agencies and asking them to sell royal Caribbean cruises. I was with Royal Caribbean at the time. I applied for the position and I didn't get it. I was the second choice. And I was very disappointed that they didn't hire me. They hired a gentleman named Art Gregory. I want to say two months later, that was February and in April, I was on one of the ships of Royal Caribbean in New York for an event where they were showing off the ship and they were just starting service from New York to Bermuda because I worked in a travel company that did a lot of business with Royal Caribbean at the time. I was invited to go. So I got on board and I met the woman who was in charge of the region who didn 't hire me and I said hello to her and said, "I'd really like to meet Art Gregory. Is he on board?" And she said, "He's no longer with the company." I was like, "You're kidding me. He's no longer with the company." And you would think that if you were second choice and the person they hired didn't even make it through their probationary period, they would call you up and say, " Listen, he didn't work out. The person we hired didn't work out. You were next in line or you're still interested in the job." And they didn't. I had to apply all over again and start all over again and go through the interview process all over again. And then finally, they hired me the second time. You are persistent for sure. Oh, no. Okay, that is a leadership lesson at the top of the list. Persistence is like a number one top of the list. And yeah, so I got beat out by a guy who didn't even make it through probation. And you were the first woman at Royal Caribbean to take on many different leadership roles. And I'm sure you had anxiety and I would say extra anxiety. Everybody has anxiety when you move into new situation, but you're doing it as a female for the first time. How did you get over that anxiety you probably had? Well, you know, it was interesting because I was the first woman and there were no other women there, not even in charge. You know, yes, I was the first women to lead these functions, but there weren't even any other women anywhere that I went or looked. And it was, you know, it was in 2005 that I moved into operations and I've spent 21 years in sales and marketing. There are plenty of women in sales and marketing and in leadership roles. But when I started in operations, there were none. And I was leading these functions and I was leading all men for the most part. The vast majority were men and I had no experience in operations. I wasn't chosen for my subject matter expertise. I was chosen for, I guess, my leadership qualities. I was chosen because I was really smart. I was a fast learner. I represented a cultural change that was really needed in our industry. And so there were a lot of other reasons that I was put into these roles. And our company believed in moving high potential people around and letting them learn new disciplines in the company. So when I took on these roles as someone that really wasn't familiar with the operation and leading all of these men who were skeptical, looking at me, wondering why I was now their boss. There was a tremendous amount of pressure on me to prove the skeptics wrong. And that's another thing that I talk about is, watch me prove you wrong. And I think a lot of times when we're given opportunities where people doubt us , it also fuels us and serves as motivation to prove people wrong. And that's what I did in the first role that I had. That's what I did in the second role. And then by the time I was president and CEO, the first woman in our company to have that title for one of our brands, there were so many women rooting for me. And I remember thinking, you can't screw this up because you might be the first , but you don't want to be the last. And there's a tremendous amount of responsibility in making sure you do well so that you prove the decision to put you in the role was the right decision. You and celebrity led the way bringing women into leadership positions in the cruise ship industry. And how'd you go about doing it? What was the big move you did? Or did you have a big move? Yeah, well, I did have a big move. I figured it was about six months into my tenure as president and CEO. And I knew, a lot of people asked me, how does it feel to have achieved what you achieved in accomplishing being the CEO of one of the brands? And I'd be lying if I didn't say that it was great. It was a major accomplishment and it was something I never dreamed that would happen for me. But I think the real thing for me isn't so much about me because sure I made it , it's wonderful, it's great. I worked really hard. I've earned everything I got. But the biggest thing for me was bringing others along with me in an industry that was woefully short of women. And there was, you know, the gender imbalance was staggering. So the first big move that I made was appointing the first woman captain for celebrity and the first and still only American woman ever to be the captain of a mega cruise ship, Captain Kate McEw. That was the start. That was the first big move. And then at that time, 3% of the women on our bridges were women. And by the time I stepped down from celebrity in April of 2023, 33% of the crew members on our bridges were women. And I did that with the help of men that I worked with who were equally passionate about more gender equality on our bridges. And I give them a tremendous amount of credit for helping get us there. Just for everybody's edification, what's a bridge role? Yeah, so the bridge is made up of the captain, the staff captain, the safety officer, cadets, the watch officers. I mean, it's the bridge team that's responsible for the safety and the navigation of the ship. You know, you say that Captain Kate McEw is a rock star. If you had to pick one thing that really distinguishes her as a leader, what would it be? The approach that she has to being a captain. It is so refreshing. It's so unique. It's so different. And everybody loves her. You know, she brings so much heart and empathy to her role. Her crew loves her, the guests love her. And you know, the way you think about captains sometimes and cruise ship captains is they have very different personalities. And I think what she has proven is that you can be human and approachable and still respected and great at what you do. And she really just changed the personality and profile of how captains should behave and think. And that's exactly what I was going for when I appointed her. And I just knew she would be so great at it. You know, when I interviewed Jenny Rometty, the former CEO of IBM, she told me that you cannot be what you cannot see. Talk about what you did for International Women's Day in 2020 and the impact that it had on your culture. Captain Kate says that all the time too. You know, if you have to see it, if you want to be it. And we had worked so hard on our gender equality and bringing more women into all leadership positions on our brand, but especially on the bridge where again, 97% of the bridge crew were men. And I remember being in a planning session in August of 2019. And our PR team was talking about some ambitious goals that we should have. And one of those was an ambitious goal around International Women's Day. And they said, wouldn't it be wonderful if we were the first cruise line to sail with a 100% female bridge for International Women's Day. We would make history. We would have broken every barrier that there is, especially in the cruise industry. And I fell in love with that idea. I was immediately excited. And so I said to the team, when do you think we can do that? And this was 2019 that we were having the discussion. And they said, I think we can do that by 2023. And so I said, okay, well, that's an interesting goal. So I looked at our head of Marine and I asked him, do you think we can do that by 2023? And he said, 2023, what are you talking about? We could do that this coming March. And I said, what do you mean we could actually sail with a 100% women bridge in March of 2020 for International Women's Day? He said, of course we can, Lisa. What do you think we've been doing all this time? And I said, we have enough women on our bridges for every single position that has to be manned 24 hours a day for women. He said, yep, give me two weeks and I'll have the whole crew assembled. And two weeks later, he had the whole crew assembled. And we didn't stop at the bridge. Every leader across the entire operation was a woman. Every person on the bridge was a woman. And we celebrated International Women's Day in March of 2020 with a 100% women bridge and leadership team for the first time ever. And still the only time ever. We were the only cruise line that could do it. We probably still are the only cruise line that could do it. It was a glorious event. I don't think I tell a story where I was standing in the grandplause that Captain Kate was pouring martinis. Melania, the associate hotel director was playing the electric guitar. The feeling was electric. The crowd was cheering. We were on the beautiful celebrity edge. And I remember thinking, if I left my position right now, it would be a mic drop. Because more than everything I ever thought I could accomplish was happening right before my eyes. And it was a beautiful and proud moment for me. Awesome. Now, I know you were the CEO and I know you had the ultimate power, but you mentioned that the men really got behind us. What was it that drove men wanting to go for this gender equality move? What did they see that got them excited? I think we all know that diverse cultures are strong cultures. We all know that balance is critically important if you're going to have a healthy culture, the right business decisions and the right outcomes. And I don't think it was any secret to any of us that there was no gender balance on our bridges. And one of the gentlemen that helped me with Swedish and the Swedes are very well known for gender equality and gender balance. And this gentleman had two daughters and had very high hopes and aspirations for his daughters. He was a captain. And then the other gentleman that helped me was a Greek captain. He also has two daughters and wanted to see his daughters be able to accomplish anything that they wanted to accomplish. And they both knew there was a big opportunity on our ships to improve our culture and improve our gender balance. So yes, I was the CEO and I wanted to make it one of our priorities, but there was no way I was going to be able to make it a priority without their help because they're the ones out recruiting all over the world and bringing these women into our organization. And they're the men that these women are talking to when they're making their decision on if they want to go to see and if they want to choose celebrity as the brand that they want to work for. So they had to be genuine in it. They had to be authentic and they had to really want it as much as I did because you can't fake that. And the other thing I always said, David, is it's one thing bringing women into an environment and into a culture. But if that culture isn't empowering, if it isn't nurturing, if they don't feel like they can accomplish everything they want to accomplish, they're not going to stay. And then you've defeated the purpose of what you're trying to do because the women will opt out and they'll leave and then you're no further ahead than when you started. So you have this career highlight at the International Women's Day of 2020 and then COVID hits just a few days later. And your entire business shuts down. What do you think is the best thing a leader can do when the business is in crisis mode? I always lived up to what my boss used to say all the time, never let a good crisis go to waste. And that was a quote from Winston Churchill. And because I have been described as a relentless optimist, I needed to use this terrible situation and turn it into a positive thing for me to get through it, for my team to get through it, for our crew to get through it, for all of our employees to get through it. And so I decided that we were going to use the time because when would you ever think you're going to get a 15 month time out to reevaluate your brand positioning? We had a mantra that the comeback was going to be stronger than the setback. And we reimagined some of our experiences. We reimagined our brand positioning. We changed our pricing strategy so that we could improve our profitability. And we came out really strong. But I will tell you that I think as a leader, one of the things I learned during that time is I really had to dial down some of the innate qualities of being a hard driving, results focused leader with metrics and traffic lights and key performance indicators, driving my decisions and everything I did every day to a leader who had to dial those down and dial up all of my empathy, my optimism, my motivation, and my inspiration because I had 20,000 people that I was working with every day that weren't sure if we were ever going to come back. Hell, I wasn't sure if we were ever going to come back, but I had to instill that optimism and hope and confidence in people every day because that's the leader they needed me to be and leaders need to learn how to pivot. We all need to learn how to flex our style and be the leader that our teams need on any given day, which could be very different. When you're winning and you're going and you're achieving, it's one thing, but man, when you're out of business for 15 months, it's a whole different style of leadership that you have to dial up. Hey, everyone. It's Kula, co-host of Three More Questions, and I have some exciting news to share with you. We just launched a breakthrough app that will help you become a better leader in less than two minutes a day. It's called How Leaders Lead. As you know on the podcast, David spends about an hour each week interviewing some of the top leaders in the world. People like Tom Brady, Condolee is a rice and Jamie Diamond. But we know that leaders like yourself are pressed for time. So we've taken the very best clips from these conversations and put them into an easy to use mobile app that you can learn from in less than two minutes a day. If you want to become a better leader, start a daily leadership habit with the How Leaders Lead app. It's available now for free in the App Store. Download it today. You say that you work in an organization where a team is everything. Everyone says this, Lisa, but how did you really make it sink in? Oh, I think it's important to surround yourself with like-minded people who are not like you. I come from a place of vulnerability and I come from a place of authenticity. I am very transparent and I share the why and the vision. I'm a salesperson. I'm a salesperson at heart. When I laid out just sort of where the brand was and where we had the opportunity to go and how I needed their help to get there, it wasn't just me saying this is what we're going to do. What it was me saying was this is where we need to go. Now how do we all think we're going to get there? Let's share our ideas and put something down on paper that we think is really going to transform our business. For the most part, and I will say for the most part, it was very easy to get people to come along with me because everybody who worked on our brand loved our brand, we're so passionate about it. We had all of the potential that the brand had and we were looking for someone. They were looking for a leader that was going to sort of take them to the promised land. I was fortunate that they believed I was that person and we all made it to the promised land which was absolutely wonderful. But then at the end of the day, sometimes I also had to make unpopular decisions that I knew were in the best interest of the brand that sometimes the team didn't really buy into or believe in. At the end of the day, I believe that you're batting average as a leader is the thing that's going to get your team to trust you and go along with you even if they don't 100% agree with you at the time because sometimes being a leader, you have to make lonely decisions. But in the end, you want your team to rally behind you and help you get there even if they aren't 100% sold on it. You think it's critically important that a leader shows their heart. How do you do that? What is it about your leadership where people feel you've got a heart? Just in the way I behave and treat them, I treat everyone with a tremendous amount of respect. I don't consider myself any better than anyone. I don't believe that titles come with respect. I believe you have to earn that with every interaction. I genuinely care that people are happy in their personal lives because I believe it helps them be happy and more productive in their professional lives. I think that I took on an even bigger caring persona as a leader when I started in operations and I was leading our crew, 20,000 crew members from all over the world who worked so hard and take care of each other and our guests and leave their homes for six, eight , 12 months at a time, leave their families, mothers leave their children. I wanted them to know that I genuinely cared about them and I behaved that way and again, I always got on our ships and treated them with respect. I never wanted them to be afraid that I was coming on board or that I was going to be critical. Sure, I would see things that I knew needed to perhaps be done a little better and I would share that at the right time with the right people. I always thanked the crew for everything they did and treated them with respect . I believe that the way you show up every day shows people that you have heart and I hold people tremendously accountable. Our goals are lofty. Our accountabilities are high but at the same time, they have to know I care about them because I also believe that the discretionary effort you get when you show people you care is priceless and I believe leaders don't place enough value on leading with heart and empathy. You talk about the importance of shared accountability. Can you share a specific story on how you drove that concept home? Well, it goes back to the team. I'm a big believer in team. I use sports analogies all the time to talk about how we're all accountable for the results and if the head of sales wins and the brand doesn't win, then the head of sales doesn't win. I believe in everybody working for the greater good, not just their own individual accomplishment. I believe in calling each other out when people don't feel that they're living up to our culture or our values because we all have this shared accountability and less than until we're all playing as a team in that regard. If it was the head of marketing and they had, we took a thousand web bookings today. That's great, but the brand didn't hit its targets today. You should feel good about a thousand bookings. The brand didn't win, so we all have this shared accountability to make sure all of our channels are performing and as the head of marketing, you need to make sure that all the channels are performing and the demand is spread across all of our different channels. Our head of operations could say, "Hey, we got a great net promoter score and look, we're beating our net promoter scores." I'm like, "Okay, but the brand, you've got a green light, but the brand has five red lights, so we can't claim individual victory. We really have to think about how we get better as a team and how the brand does well." That I think keeps people humble and honest and working in a more collaborative and cohesive way. You're obviously a very results-oriented person. How do you judge yourself in your own individual performance? Well, clearly, when you're the CEO of a unit within a publicly traded company, it truly is all about the money. That's just what it comes down to. That's the cold, hard reality of what we do every day. I completely understood that every day that I went to work, returning extraordinary shareholder value was my number one mission and it was really the thing I was judged on and that's what I needed to do. At the end of the day, that's what mattered and that's what mattered most. What I always thought about every single day was how I was going to do that. It wasn't just that I did that. It was how did I do it. I wanted to make sure that I was a leader, that people wanted to work for, that knew I was fair, that had a heart, and that led them with courage and would make a decision and would have their backs. Anytime things went well and any time things didn't go well. So employee engagement, I remember we were having probably the toughest year that we had as a brand when we were coming out of COVID and trying to get back to our glory days, going back to the glory days. Yet even during that really difficult time, I had the highest employee engagement score in the company, even though our brand was having a difficult time getting back to where we were when we shut down. It was because of how I led, but not only me, it was how even the other leaders that worked with me led and how our employees felt about being a part of what we were doing . In good times or bad times, we've always had the highest employee engagement score and I think that speaks volumes about how you make people feel when they're coming to work every day, trying to accomplish great things. This has been a lot of fun and I want to have some more with my lightning round of questions. Are you ready for this? I'm ready. What's one word others use that best describe you? Driven. What would you say is the one word that best describes you? Driven. Who would play you in a movie? Reese Witherspoon. If you could be one person for a day beside yourself, who would it be? Tom Brady. What's something about leadership you've learned from Tom Brady? Keep that chip on your shoulder man and keep proving them wrong. What's your biggest pet peeve? Negativity. Your most memorable cruise destination. Alaska. What's something you'd only know about being at sea if you worked in the industry? The feeling of family. What's one of your daily rituals something you'd never miss? Taking time for my family. If I turned on the radio in your car, what would I hear? Bruce Springsteen. What's something about you a few people would know? I'm a huge football fan. Well, we're out of the lightning round. Great job. I just got a few more questions for you and I'll let you go. You have a great book coming out called Baking Waves, A Woman's Rise to the Top using Smart's Heart and Courage. Why'd you write it? Because everybody told me I needed to write a book. Just like being president and CEO of Celebrity was never in my line of vision. Writing a book was never in my line of vision. But so many people that I have encountered along my journey when I made it to the top inside of our company and industry outside said you need to write a book and share what you've learned. And so finally I decided, all right, let me give it a go. And I really wanted to do it to share what I've learned. Listen, I rose from the very bottom to the very top and I also wanted to share that if I can do it, so can you. And you just need to be purposeful about it and think about what you want and don't take no for an answer. Just keep going as far as you can go. You're stepping away from Royal Caribbean after almost 40 years in the company. After getting to know you a little bit in this conversation, I can't believe it . A, you really are young. B, you have a young mind and C, you're very, very passionate about what you're doing. Why in the hell are you leaving? And when does a leader know that it's time to move on? How do you go through that process? Oh my goodness. Thank you, but I'm not that young. I am clearly retirement age, but I'm not going to retire. But you know, listen, 39 years in the corporate world, nine amazing years as president and CEO of Celebrity, I wrote this book and the subtitle is A Woman's Rise to the Top Using Smart's Heart and Courage. And I really lean on the word courage because courage, it took so much courage every step of the way for me. And so many of the things that I've done in my life and in my career, it also took courage to walk away. You know, sometimes you just have to say, I know I'm done with this, but I know I'm not done yet. And the time was just right for me. It was a stage in my life. You know, when you're in this corporate environment for 39 years, you got to admit I spent a lot longer in this corporate world than most people do, especially in one company. I lived through COVID. I lost my sister during COVID, which significantly impacted me. And at a certain point in time, I don't think I'm unlike anybody else right now . You're reevaluating what the rest of your life is going to look like. And oh, I am not done yet. I promise you that. I want to write a new chapter literally and figuratively. And that's the stage of my life that I'm at. And it took a lot of courage to make that decision. I have to tell you, leaving celebrity, leaving our crew, leaving the people I worked with every day was a tough, tough decision. It took a lot of courage, but it was the right decision. And I'm really excited about the future. Have you been able to identify your unfinished business? What is it if you have it? No, I haven't, but I'm looking for it. And people ask me, all right, what's next? And there are a few things that are next. I have a way of believing that the I'm going to be, leave myself open to the universe because that's what I've done my entire career. I didn't always have a plan, but things happened to transpire that took me in the right direction and a great direction and places I never expected to be. And I think that's going to continue. I also believe that we're all an outcome of our body of work and everything that we've done and the reputation that we've built and the results that we've achieved and how we've done that are going to serve us well in the future. And so I'm very optimistic that I'm going to have a very exciting next chapter, maybe even more exciting than the first. Who knows? It doesn't sound like you're retiring. It sounds like you're refiring, which is great. There you go. Oh, I love that. I'm going to use that. Well, I stole it from somebody myself. So go ahead. Last question. What's the single best piece of advice you'd offer to other leaders? Focus on the people. The people will get you where you want to go. You know, I achieved great things and none of it was alone. If I didn't have amazing people that I worked with every day, I would have not accomplished anything and just value the people and lead with heart. Fantastic. And Lisa, you obviously walk the talk. You're a well acknowledged leader, highly respected, not only in your industry, but in the world of leaders. And I thank you for taking the time to be on the show with me. David, it was an absolute honor. I so appreciate this. Thank you so very, very much. Well, I don't know about you, but after talking to Lisa, I'm ready to board a cruise ship to some tropical place where Captain Kate is in charge and the ranch water is flowing. But just to stay here in reality for a minute, let's talk about how this conversation can make you a better leader. Lisa reminds us what a game changer it is when we tap into the power of persistence. With optimism and strength and just good old fashioned stubbornness, you can turn your toughest challenges into your biggest successes. So take a minute and think back. Was there a time in your professional life where you really had to be persistent, when you just wouldn't take no for an answer? How did that persistence pay off for you? I want you to remind yourself of your own persistence. And let me tell you something, that will help you draw more on that strength when you need it. So do you want to know how leaders lead? What we learned today is that great leaders know that persistence pays off. Coming up next on how leaders lead is NFL Hall of Famer and four time Super Bowl champ, Lynn Swan. You know, certainly in the competitive environment football, you don't always win. You get hit, you get knocked down, somebody intercepts a pass. They stop you from doing what you're trying to get done. So what do you do? You go back to your film study, you watch practice film, you watch game film, you watch and learn from other people and you learn constantly for yourself and how to get better. So be sure to come back again next week to hear our entire conversation. Thanks again for tuning in to another episode of How Leaders Lead, where every Thursday you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world. I make it a point to give you something simple on each episode that you can apply to your business and your leadership so that you will become the best leader you can be . [BLANK_AUDIO] [BLANK_AUDIO]