Welcome to How Leaders Lead, where every week you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world. I break down the key learning so that by the end of the episode, you'll have something simple you can apply as you develop into a better leader. That's what this podcast is all about. There's one maximum in leadership that I am sure applies to every situation. If you want a high-performing company, you need to build a high-performing team . We all want to get the most from our teams, but what did they need from us as leaders in order to succeed? That's the question we need to ask. Fortunately for us, I'm talking with Mark Irwin today. This is a guy who has spent decades building and leading strong teams. He's currently the president and CEO of Bardstown, Bourbon. You might want to have a shot of that, where he and his team are doing incredible things to stand out in a really crowded category. And get this, he spent 25 years serving in the army where he led the super elite Delta Force on countless top secret missions in Iraq and Afghanistan. In fact, I'm just going to go ahead and say it. If you live in America, you're safer today because of the way Mark Irwin built and commanded his teams. And as we mark the anniversary of 9/11 this week, I sure as heck am grateful for that fact. Some really incredible things are possible when we as leaders build strong teams. And Mark says that starts by equipping them properly. That can be in the army, that can be in the private sector, that can be in the public sector. It's anywhere where you have to have people moving forward aligned to drive great results. If you're ready to see how that's done, keep listening because here's my conversation with my good friend and soon to be yours, Mark Irwin. Mark you spent 25 years in the army and commanded every level of our nation's most elite special missions unit, Delta Force, you're the captain to the colonel. I just want to start out by thanking you so much for your service. I appreciate it. I'm always honored, but I'm humbled when my family's around and people thank me because they're the ones that really should be thanked for what they put up with. And now you've really shift gears. There's no question about that. You're the president and CEO of Bardstown Bourbon and Bardstown Kentucky. What's the most fun part of that job, Mark? I didn't go to work every day. You know, I spent all this time in the military, 25 years plus, and really was proud of what I was doing. I got out for 2010, spent about nine years in the consulting world. And as you know, when you're a consultant, you're not really on the team. I'll tell you at Bardstown, I'm truly proud to be back on a team of folks who you can see, love what they do, are experts at what they do and proud to come to work every day. So that's probably the biggest thing about it every day is getting to come share it with these people. You know, Mark, almost all the bourbon in the world is distilled in Kentucky. You know, what makes Kentucky such an ideal place to distill bourbon? It's our America's native spirit. So you know, you go all the way back to the history, it's the environment, it's the limestone, it's the corn. It's the perfect environment to produce bourbon, and you're exactly right, David. About 95% of the world's bourbon is here in Kentucky. And we certainly want to keep it that way. There's a lot of others who are making bourbon, but we always say you can make bourbon anywhere in the United States. And it's officially bourbon. But if you want to sell it, you better make it here in Kentucky. Now, I know your roots are North Carolina, but it's not listening to your action. I think you've kind of picked up a little bit of Kentucky accent. That was the interesting part. We were told we were coming to the Southeast when we moved out here. And I'm closer to Lake Michigan than I ever have been in my life, living in Louisville. So, you know, we talk the same, but the winters are a bit tougher out here than North Carolina. It is kind of funny because, you know, I live in Louisville myself and Louisville's really more than Midwest. It's not the South, but everybody has that deep South thinking of Kentucky. What makes a Barb's town bourbon so unique and how are you redefining the category? So, look, we had a founder, a gentleman named Pete Lofton. He was a serial entrepreneur. He did a lot of different things as a young guy, made a bunch of money. And at some point, he invested a couple million bucks in bourbon. He bought two million dollars worth just as a commodity and saw it was a great investment. And he did that in Indiana. So he was wondering why isn't someone doing this in Kentucky? And it was his startup. He came in. He hired my predecessor. He came in and really revamped the category by making a lot of whiskey for others. He had the gumption to create this state of the art facility. So we're making a lot of bourbon for others, which is revenue that's allowing us to invest to grow our brand. So as a young brand in the whiskey category, you have to either make something else that you can sell as soon as you bring it off the still, Jen or vodka, or you got to keep raising capital. At Bardstown, with this business model of making whiskey for others, we haven't had to do that once. The stills have been sold out max capacity since 2016. 25,000 barrels we started with, then with the 50. Now we're making 115,000 barrels a year. The majority of that going to help other brands come to market while we take the time to grow our brand as we go. We've also created this unique experience here at Bardstown. It started out calling it the Napification of the Bourbon Trail. We're certainly copying what happened in the wine industry. And I think that's happening across Kentucky now. May have started there at Bardstown, but you can see it grow and all the different distillaries are trying to focus more on experiences as more and more people come on the Kentucky Bourbon Trail every year here to Kentucky. So it's a great asset for our state. It's a great asset for bringing people to Kentucky. We've got the Derby. We've got horses, but let's face it, bourbon's the revenue for the state. The bourbon category itself has just been explosive and your business is growing leaps and bounds as you just talked about it. What do you think is making bourbon such a hot thing these days? Younger folks are coming into category. It's not just dad's old drink or my granddad's old drink anymore. It's something uniquely American. It's something that people probably are actually drinking a little bit less. But what they're doing is becoming more educated about what they're drinking in the spirits category. And bourbon's such a unique thing with the mass bills and the recipes that go into it. It's something that people love geeking out on and learning about as they go. There's tons of room for international growth that we haven't even touched yet. So this pattern is going to continue for years to come for sure. Mark, I want to go into how you're leading Bartstown bourbon, but I want to take you back and ask you about your Army days because you had a fabulous military career. What made you go into the Army in the first place? So David, I see these kids today with these plans of what they want to do. I assure you, I had no plan. I went to college to play soccer. As a matter of fact, I got a letter of acceptance from Wake Forest and the soccer coach got me in. I grew up on team sports, that's all I thought about, never claimed to be a real student, always enough to get my, but sports was my thing. That's what I did and I was a team sports guy. I don't know if I'd have been very good at individual sports. I kind of saw the coaches leaned on me occasionally and I could be a leader. And my junior year in college, I saw that with a psychology degree, I was either going to have to go to more school or do something else. So I decided to join ROTC my junior year. Again, didn't have a lot of thought into this. This was, let's do this for three years and grow up a little bit and figure out what's next and what I walked into David was a perfect team sport. That's all it was for me. It was, you know, as an infantry lieutenant, it's a leadership laboratory. Everything about it is a bit competitive. You're trying to learn as you go, but it truly was the perfect team sport. And instead of the three year mindset, which is what I went into it with, I found it to be a perfect setup for me to make a career out of it. Well, you led the most elite fighting machine in the world, the Delta Force. What was it like to have that kind of responsibility and pressure? Yeah, it was, it was serious. So you're a captain in the infantry. You're doing all these things that the military tells you to do. And at some point, again, I wound up in a spot where it wasn't what I thought I signed up for. And somebody told me about Delta Force. I truly didn't know anything about it. I'm 10 years into the army. It was pretty secret back then. And we didn't talk about it a lot. It was another opportunity to try something different. And I tried out, made it through the selection process in 1995 and ended up staying there for the next 15 years. So certainly an amazing experience for me. And then years into the service, you think you're on your game. You think you know how to do what you do. And all of a sudden you wind up in an organization that you can clearly see is different. Everybody in that organization was used to being the best at everything they did. So immediately you switch to, I might not be first, but I definitely don't want to be last in anything I'm doing. So it truly was the first high performing organization I've ever been around. And I think first thing is you recognize it. You recognize Holy cow. This is something really special. And then I think there's a bit of pride that kicks in that you got there and then a desire to perform. So everything about it from that point on is what can I do to perform to make sure I stay in this organization as long as you can. And that was literally my mindset from the beginning. I always call myself a test case for that organization because most of them came from our Ranger community or our Special Forces community. And I was from the big airborne infantry of the 82nd. So a different path to get there, but I continued to perform and work my way up through the organization. And like a lot of great organizations, they almost always hire from within for their bosses. And I was fortunate enough to be selected to be the boss in '07 and '09. So you can imagine that timeframe, what was going on from 2001 forward. There were a lot of time gone and a lot of time spent overseas. But you're working around some of the best warriors, some of the best people I could ever imagine being around. And just the pride that comes with that to be able to do that every day, you truly feel privileged. So leading it was quite interesting. I will tell you the day that I took over in July of 2007, you know, in the military when bosses switch over like that. The night before, the outgoing guys in his office, he's cleaning it out, everything off the walls, all his, I love me photos and all that stuff is gone. The next morning you come in to your new office completely bare and you sit down and you're in charge, right? You do a little ceremony and there you go. He's out. I'm in. I walk into this empty office. I opened up the desk drawer of this desk that's been there for every Delta Force commander prior to me. And there's a little yellow sticky in there. A friend of mine had taken my family around the organization just to show them, you know, what goes on at Delta. And I guess they had walked them in and showed them office and in there as a yellow sticky in the bottom of drawer from my sister saying, go get them, bro. So I was like, what do you do? You're nervous, but you've been there. You know what you're supposed to be doing. So you get busy. Go get them, bro. I love it. You know, and Mark, you know, I know you well enough to know that you're a humble guy. And I did a podcast with the late great former Army Chief of Staff, Ray Odierno , fantastic guy. And when he was asked about you, he said that you were the meanest, toughest guy he'd ever see and you could take out an elite unit by yourself. Now, how did you develop those kinds of skills? First of all, huge respect for General Odierno, who unfortunately passed away on us, first meeting in Iraq in 2003. General Odierno was a two star at the time, running literally what used to be Saddam's turf. It was where he grew up. So it was the toughest neighborhood for sure. And he was truly one of the leading warriors we had in Iraq at the time. And we were there to help him out. So that's where our relationship started. And all I can tell you is I respected the heck out of him and enjoyed working with him throughout the years, but he gave me a little extra credit there for all these great warriors that I was surrounded by. I told you, you're humble. Now, you've gone into battle knowing that you're going to get shot at. How did you prepare for those situations and what learnings can you apply to everyday life? David, I've been fortunate to see my life with a bunch of different experiences . I was shot at multiple times, but I was never in a position where I thought, oh my gosh, this is it today. And I know there's a lot of warriors out there who have had that exact feeling. So I think there's a difference in that actual events that occur, but more importantly, how you perceive those events and how much risk you're taking on. I've been very fortunate throughout my life where I think a lot of people would see things as very stressful. Maybe they're stressful to me, but I handle them in a different way. And it's probably not external. And I just don't feel that stress the same way others might. I'm not saying I love getting shot at, but again, it's a different way of dealing with it than most. And bottom line is I knew I had a bunch of studs around me on all sides. Anytime I'd ever been shot at, the one thing you got to remember about our organization, we had the equipment we needed, we had the resources we needed, we had the firepower we needed when we needed it. That's the best organization out there, right? One that has trained skilled individuals with the resources that they need and the freedom to actually operate. That's what makes a successful organization, that these individuals have the freedom to operate. And that's what I think we faced all the time. So I think we were in a bit of a unique circumstance in places like Iraq where we were mostly on the offense, we were rarely on the defense. And that makes a really big difference in your outlook of what you're trying to achieve, I think. We'll be back with the rest of my conversation with Mark Irwin in just a moment . As you heard us just talk about, Mark and I both knew and admired the late great General Ray Oderno. And I got to tell you, I absolutely cherish the conversation that Ray and I got to have not too long before he passed away. There's an absolute goldmine of wisdom about what it takes to become a trustworthy leader. The way you build trust is through your confidence, your commitment and your character. And you need that in any leadership position. But in the military it's even more important because you're making life and death decisions at times. And so they got to believe in you. And when they trust you, if you make a bad decision, they're okay with that. Because they know that you're trying to do the right thing. We'll miss my entire conversation with the late and great Ray Oderno. Episode 26 here on How leaders lead. You know Mark, it's one thing to run a team. It's one thing to have great people. But you have to put process and discipline around things that really matter most. And you know, we have all kinds of things that we do in business. How do you learn from it? How do you go about that? We had the toughest after action reviews of any organization I've ever been around. And I think that was critical. And leaders got beat up. Bosses got beat on by their subordinates every level looking at an event that just took place. And I think that was one of the best pieces about that organization that it was a requirement to do those. Often it's easy to not do them. And I think the fact that we did those on a regular basis, nobody got by with either a mistake. It's okay. You do the mistakes, but we've got to learn from them. And the only way to do that is talk about them. And I think that level of trust about the organization that we could do that and everybody still get along and have a drink afterwards was a huge strength in that organization that frankly is hard to create in the commercial world. People are a lot more sensitive out here than what I'm used to. So I have to try to make sure I temper that a bit, I guess. I'm really intrigued by this after action review because this is something that we should be doing in business as well every time we launch a program or whatever we want to really learn from it. Take us through the bones of how you really made that happen. You'd sit there on the board and you'd talk about exactly what happened. That's the first thing. What was the plan? What happened? Every step of the way, what happened, if there was a mistake throughout, it was identified. And then you talk about who could have done something better and you talk through every aspect of what actually happened on the ground. And look, people call each other on it. If you try to sugarcoat it and make it look like a mistake wasn't a mistake, that's not healthy for anybody. So because it was a procedure and something we did, it wasn't like people were worried about their job or not being comfortable with their situation and whether or not they were going to get fired the next day. There were certainly fireable offenses in Delta. If your weapon went off when it wasn't planned to go off, you were gone. It's unacceptable because it's a safety risk that we can't afford to have. But other than that, it's all learning. It's what we're supposed to be doing. And even that one's a learner. People left for a year and then they were allowed to come back if it was not something more egregious than that accident. So what really wasn't a special event because it was a matter of course to do a business that read trust and people would really open up so you could learn from everything. Yeah. So I mean, I think the after action reviews were critical and that every time it was a process, everybody knew it was coming. Whether you goofed up or not, you knew it was coming, but you went through exactly what was supposed to happen on that operation. And then you walked through exactly what actually happened on that operation with everybody's input. And then you thought about and reported what we could have done better with each of those circumstances because again, the outcome and the goal of these sometimes very tough AARs, if you were one of the ones that didn't perform in the way that you were expected, the whole goal was to make the organization better and that was it. You took on the most challenging missions. Can you tell us about a situation where you thought this can't be happening to me and how you handled it? July of 2003, if you'll remember back in the day, there was a deck of cards. So we had a deck of cards. Saddam was the ace of spades. His sons were two of the other aces and a guy named Kimokalali was the fourth ace. So deck of cards, that's who we were hunting. That was our job. That's what we were meant to do in Iraq. We had an individual who literally walked off the street and walked into an army base and said that Uday and Cusse, Saddam's two sons were staying in his house, that they would go out during the night, come back for daylight and sleep all day and go out again the next night. So luckily, that individual got passed along to the senior intel folks there where one of my guys was located and they interviewed the guy. They actually polygraph the guy and he miserably failed the polygraph. So the intel bubbles at that time just said he's lying, we're done with him. My sergeant major who was there on the ground that day called me and said, for whatever reason I believe this guy. So we decided to go ahead and pick up. We flew from Baghdad. This was up in Mosul, Iraq. We flew to Mosul. We got there about midnight. We got briefed by the intel folks that he was lying and they went back to bed and we planned for the next morning to go around this house and just see what was up. The next morning the individual was supposed to call us at nine o'clock and say , yes, they're in the house. No call. So everybody's looking at me and I said, well, let's just go check it out. So we go down to this house in downtown Mosul. It's this beautiful neighborhood, big marble houses, very expensive neighborhood and we surround this house. And very abnormal for our type of operations where we almost always went at night. We always make sure we had surprise because we felt so risky about this that it was either set up or fake. We got my interpreter out, got him on the bullhorn, said, Udayan, Qusay, come out of the house, nothing. Udayan Qusay, come out of the house, nothing. So at that point the man walked out of his house and came up to my guys and said, they're in there. So it's his house. He's telling us this. So I had the guys start shooting grenades up into the house, still no reply. So we started walking towards the house to go in the house and that's when they started firing at us. They didn't know who it was, but we knew they were bad guys at that point. And I've really learned a lot that day because no one is our first firefighting Iraq. I knew I had a bunch of studs who had their heads on and were thinking and we went out in the house, normal tactics that we had went up the stairs, dog in the lead. And unfortunately we'd given them time to kind of barricade themselves in. So they had an advantage on the stairwell. We had two guys shot in the leg and we had a dog kill. So we backed off. We knew they weren't going anywhere. So we backed off. We took our time. We started having the local force shoot larger weapons, any tank missiles into the walls. And actually a general from the local division there because we were the visitors, a general from the local division came up who I knew for years and he said, Mark, how long is this going to take? Because this was kind of the first firefight going on in the neighborhood there . And I said, sir, when we can see through that building, that's when we're going back in there. And that's what we did. We wound up that day getting rid of two of the baddest guys in the war, two guys that were very bad to their people. And that night down in Baghdad, I'll tell you, I've never been anywhere near the type of celebration we saw that night. As a matter of fact, we went up on the roof to watch and we quickly got off the roof because everybody who owned an AK-47, the multi-million people in Baghdad were shooting them up in there. So we went down inside and enjoyed on our own crazy experience. Just another day at the office, speaking of challenging situations and that was definitely one of them. I understand you broke your neck and you were paralyzed from the neck down. How'd that happen? And what'd that experience teach you? That was what I call my slow down injury. I'm proud to have been an athlete all my life. I was in Africa. I was actually working, running the business for a private equity firm out of New York. I spent a lot of time in Africa, in the Middle East and India. Believe it or not, we were doing medical tourism. So I was surrounded by nurses and doctors and I grew up with a sister who was a very high-end gymnast, Olympic trials and all. And she always had me doing backflips, back hand springs. I did my last back hand spring. I slipped a little bit and just wound up banging my head and paralyzed from the neck down. Again, luckily, the right people there around me did the right things, took care of me, got me out of there, flew down to Johannesburg to get cut on. I'm sitting there. I'm on a gurney. I can't move. The doctor's standing behind me. It's a Saturday morning. He's talking about what he's going to do. And I'm in South Africa by myself with a nurse who I knew well. And I asked the doctor, I said, "Can you move down here close to my hip so I can see you?" And had him move down, I said, "Are you any good at this? I mean, what are you going to do?" So he says, "Yeah, I've done a couple of thousand of these. I did two of them yesterday." Okay, I guess that's good enough. Let's go. So bottom line is exactly what needed to happen, what would have happened in the US, happened in Africa. I got the right surgery, got flown back home, thankfully, to a friend of mine who got me back to the States. And I went back to hospital and University of North Glad of Chapel Hill and learned how to walk again. It was a humbling experience. One that I mean, it's with me for the rest of my life. I've still got some numbness issues. But what I remember most is that a day into it, I was told that my finger moved and my toe moved. So at that point, to me, I knew everything was connected. And at that point on, it was just going to be about hard work. I never sat around and thought I was going to be in a wheelchair. Again, I think it's back to that same mindset that I've been blessed with of not being too far off on either highs or lows. I'm not saying I don't get real excited or get mad or whatever else, but I think I've been balanced. And that's probably one of the things that I coach people on as much as anything. If leaders are going way up and down, that's unhealthy for any organization. One of my first bosses in Army, his name was General at the time, Lieutenant Colonel Casey, he wound up becoming our Chief of Staff of the Army and ran the Iraq War for three years. He used to talk about this low burning intensity and he equated it to a pilot flame in your belly. And you can turn it up when you need to, but you turn it back down. But the key is you're managing that flame, not external forces managing that flame. If at leaders going high and low all the time, really unhealthy for an organization, but there's times when you need to crank it up. And so if you're managing it, then that's the right way to lead. So great lesson from him. And certainly that whole experience was a humbling, but good learner for me. I wound up seeing what it's like to go through rehab. I can't imagine going through that experience if you haven't really had to work hard physically before, that would not be a fun experience. I can imagine the number of people who have had to do that. But I was certainly one of the fortunate ones to come through it the way that it ended up. And thank goodness I had a wife who wanted to put up with it, who was willing to feed me and all the different things there. So frankly, it's amazing to see your body, what it can do and what it can go through. You mentioned you joined the Army because you really love being on teams and this was the ultimate team sport. And you worked with multiple countries and you commanded an almost 4,000 troop task force with Iraqi freedom where you literally became renowned in the Army for specializing in team building. What are the keys to team building from your perspective? And can you give us a couple of examples of how you made it happen in the Army? I think basic leadership is team building or should be team building. And it's all about the people and it's about real relationships. You can't fake relationships. You can either build them or you can't. But you got to build those real relationships where people trust both ways. I've got to trust that individuals are doing what they say they're going to do, the integrity is there and they got to trust the same with me. Even more important is that everyone has a common vision and an understanding of what you're trying to achieve and that they have individuals who are empowered and freedom to operate. And then that you actually are able to provide assets and resources. That's when teams really perform. It's what I've thought about all my life as far as trying to do that with people when I was officially in charge or not. I think what often is the case and David, you know this from your experience, it's not always the person in charge that's the leader. There's leaders throughout the whole organization and I think that's one of the things that I've always tried to do is when I come into an organization, one of the first things you want to do is assess who those leaders are. Who are the influencers? That's what you got to figure out because that's how you're going to be successful. There's a thing that a lot of people talk about now, psychological safety, whatever. To me, it's that comfort knowing that you can speak up, speak your mind at any level of the organization and that you're part of that team. I had a great friend. We both had a boss who liked to call us his peers. He was our boss, so it was a little awkward that he was calling us his peer. But this individual came in and he gave a pitch on the book Good to Great and how you like to fight things out. So we were in a conference room meeting one morning, the whole senior leadership in there. He was saying something that a lot of us didn't agree with and my friend gave it to old. You want to fight? I'll fight you right now and he stood up and really fight. I'm thinking he just lost his ability to influence right there. That's exactly what happened. So that team safety of everybody being able to communicate and everybody be able to take criticism was not there under that leader. And it's something like that that in my mind, you'll learn from every time. I think most organizations, but especially the Army, it's such a great leadership laboratory because bosses change so regularly. Obviously, in the commercial world, it happens a lot less. But in the first three and a half years of my Army career, I had four different bosses. I was in charge of three different organizations. So you're always getting to morph a little bit and learn from every boss along the way. And I think as long as you're doing that, you can figure out a way to influence a team, which to me is not a bad word. There's some folks who think influence is negative. I'm not talking about psychological operations. I'm talking about really creating relationships so you can influence that organization up and down because what's not an effective organization is a boss sitting there telling everybody what to do. That'll never be an effective organization. Absolutely. And looking back, Mark, you were obviously a key player in the war on global terror. Can you tell us about what you think was your biggest leadership challenge in that role? We had to morph our organization. We had to change so much. We were an organization that was created to do hostage rescue and hostage rescue is very specific. You're gathering intelligence, then you're going and you're executing operation and then you're coming back home and deep breathing. That was it. One thing at a time, we had to change an organization that was doing 24-hour operations around the world. That was quite a challenge for us throughout the organization, not only struct urally, manpower-wise, but even in our thinking because we were so used to doing one thing at a time, we had to change the whole organization. We had to change things that supported our organizations that were all created to kind of support this one time, go out, do it, come home thing and get everybody on board that this was going to be a long fight. It was going to be a continuous fight and that we were going to have to keep given. That took a lot, I think one of the keys for if any success is credited towards me, it's having the right number two by your side. This is something that I think is critically important for any leader. I don't care what level of the organization is, but you better have that trusted agent that can help you influence the others in the organization because, again, it can't be the boss telling people what to do. In the Army, that's a pretty easy one. I had a senior enlisted command sergeant major who was right there by my side every step of the way and he could go influence in a bit different way that I could. He was able to get people at a different level and talk in a different way than I might have been able to. That's something frankly that I look for in civilian life as well because I think it's equally as important that you have somebody that is your right-hand person, that you fully trust to help you influence the organization. Maybe it's a couple people, but I think more than not, it's often that one truly trusted person. This conversation will air as we remember 9/11. How much safer are we today, Mark? What do you see as our country's greatest risk today? I've been focused on the bourbon world more than national security lately, but it's something that's in me. 9/11 was a game changer for all of us. We never even imagined that something like that could happen. I think we're a heck of a lot safer just because of all the things we've put in place. Nobody's been able to get any kind of impact at the level that I'll kind of add back on 9/11. I do believe we're in a safer place. Of course, that has cost us a lot. Our kids, our people, our national debt, but I think we are in a safer place. I will tell you that lately, I am much more concerned over where we are internationally. I think, and I'm not being political here, I think George Bush was my hero. I'm sorry, that's who I fought with, that's who I was fighting for. I believed in the fact that he was making the best decisions he could make, whether they were the best or not. I think we've had a period of leadership that didn't stand us up in the best way internationally. We've been confusing over the last few administrations, and I think that's a dangerous place for us to be. America has never been confusing about what our stance is around the world, and lately we have been, and that's open doors for others to take advantage of. I've seen the things that China has done all around Africa gaining terrain in places that are critical to international security. I think China is definitely a huge threat for us. I like to tell people, and this stirs people up, we are the best country in the world. We have great neighbors around us, and we ought to take care of them, and ourselves here at home a lot more, and that's where I would love for us to focus. I believe every great leader must have a plan to get better. In fact, I think it's so important that I actually send out a weekly leadership plan. Each week the plan focuses on a different leadership topic and gives you action able steps you can take to develop that skill on a practical level. Think about it like a leadership development program, only it's simple. No fluff practical skills will help you lead your team to success. You can get free access at howleaderslead.com/plan. That's howleaderslead.com/plan. Getting back to what you're doing now, you are the CEO of a bourbon company. How in the world did that happen? What was it that said to you, "Hey, I got to get into the private sector," and then you mentioned you were in some consulting roles. How did you get into bourbon business? Again, David, I've been very fortunate with relationships and introductions. I came out of the military in 2010 and I wanted to do something other than defense contracting. I felt like I had done my time on the defense side and wanted to do something different. I have a fabulous wife who was allowing me to take some risks. She was our breadwinner and doing well in the banking world. I started walking the streets of New York with some great introductions. I had basically telling hedge funds and private equity firms that I could help them in their challenging operating environments. We wound up starting a business and getting some jobs for some of my former mates in the Navy Seal and Delta community. We did a lot of work for corporates overseas. That's actually what I was doing when I got hurt. We wound up creating my own risk advisory firm. That's what I thought I was going to do for a long time into the future. That's when I met Bartstown Bourbon Company. I was introduced by a good friend who you know, John Mack, former head of Morgan Stanley. He was asked to be on the board of this company. He didn't know anything about bourbon. He knew I liked bourbon. I didn't know that much about bourbon either. But I enjoyed coming out here, getting to meet this team, seeing what an amazing business this was. And through that, I wound up being on the board at some point. And then there was a change of focus on the founder and previous CEO and the way they wanted to grow the company. And I got the call three years ago. In Delta, obviously, we hired from within. This is obviously a hire from without significantly, not even from the industry . But good on our founder, I think it was the right time, right place for some leadership one on one to an organization that had awesome growth opportunity. And all I did is come in and provide some of these extremely talented people that my predecessor had hired, give them the freedom, the resources to grow this thing. And that's exactly what's been going on for the last three years. But you didn't have any experience in the bourbon business. So you come in totally as an outsider. How did you parlay the skills that you learned in the army and to really taking over a business where you clearly weren't an expert and you're running the whole show? First of all, remember in the army, we're very good at executing budgets, meaning spending money. We're not good at making money. So I do give credit to the job I have with the private equity firm out of New York to help me think about profit and loss and figuring out how to make money. So I was comfortable with that part of business in general. And look, this is not rocket science out here. It's focusing on quality. It's focusing on making great products. I've got key leaders in every single piece of the business. Frankly, same as I had when I was commanding military organizations, there was a lot of activities that I wasn't, by any means, the expert in. The advantage I had is at least I had grown up through the organization and seen it. So this is different. And there was probably a lot more questions when I showed up out here about in the industry and among my own team of who is this guy. But again, I came into it the way I would anything else. Even wanting to learn, wanting to find where the influencers are in the organization and figuring out how to enable them to help them do their jobs better. And that's truly the focus I've had. And I think the talent and the reason we're growing is because of these great team members we have that are incredibly smart at what they're doing themselves. And we now have a common vision of what we're trying to achieve, which is grow internationally recognized independent spirits company. You were kind enough to give me a tour of Bartstown, bourbon, and I really had a blast walking around the distillery with you. But one of the things that really impressed me is that you knew everyone by name, you introduced me and you told me specifically what they did. And you could see the pride in their faces as you did that. What's behind that? Where'd you learn that skill? I want to be part of the team, just like I want everybody else to feel like they're part of the team. So the only way to do that is to try to build those real relationships. And look, it's not easy when you're growing an organization and it keeps growing on you. You've got to keep learning and learning. But I used to term it in the military as being there. So I'm not a workaholic. I don't sit at my desk all day. I don't stay at my office late at night. But I want people to know that I'm there when they meet me, that I understand what they're going through and what their issues are and what their requirements are. So the only way to do that is get out of your office and get around and see people at what they're actually doing at work, how they do it. And they're much more likely to tell you what their issues are. If you're out there on the floor with them, then if you're trying to get it through a meeting. Absolutely. And you mentioned earlier, there is this thing called the Kentucky Bourbon Trail where tourists visit the distilleries. And most of them, and I've been to a lot of them, most of them are very, very traditional. But I was really impressed with how modern and contemporary your distillery was and your new restaurant that you have there, which has a phenomenal chicken sandwich. And I like to think I know my chicken, it was unbelievable. And he had a tremendous shot there. What was your thinking in terms of you described it as "napification"? I go back to our founder and my predecessor who actually created the mindset of it. We honor that history and tradition of bourbon and America's spirit and what's going on here in Kentucky. But at Barstom Bourbon Company, we're pushing innovation in every way we can. And so part of that is those unique experiences that we're trying to create. So it's not just one standard tour. We're creating experiences every day to make them different because it is a tourist event. We're in hospitality and people want something different. We have a lot of repeat offenders that keep coming back to our distillery. Number one, because we have this great restaurant and many of the others don't. It's part of the transparency and everything we do that I think has opened up Barstom to be a talking point for the Kentucky Bourbon Trail where most of the tour guides , they want people to see what's going on there because they realize that it's unique and different. And again, we honor that history and tradition as we push innovation and modern approaches to bourbon. What do you see as the biggest challenge when it comes to building bourbon brands? Go into any restaurant in Kentucky, almost all of them have great bourbon bars and just look at the shell. That's what's hard about it. How do you stand out on that shelf of hundreds of other brands? Yeah, there's some capital outlay and all of that, but that's there in any business. This is how do you stand out and become unique in an industry that plenty of people are very familiar with their products that they've been drinking for years. And I will tell you that right now is the time to do it because people are searching. They're reaching out for different brands. They look to try different things. There's a lot going on in the bourbon world now with all these different bourbon podcasts and social media pieces going on that I think you got to have something unique. And frankly, the fact that at Barstom we went with the total transparent piece, which is not something that's been traditional in our industry. We take honor in our ability to blend whiskeys, which again, in the bourbon world, there hadn't been a lot of talk about that. We've become experts at finishing whiskeys in wine barrels or beer barrels or cognac barrels. And we've really made a name for ourselves in those three areas. But I'll tell you what I'm most proud of. It's the fact that there are folks at our place that are proud to come to work every day. And that's what makes it fun for me. For years, I drove into Delta and literally kind of felt like the hair was standing up on the back of my neck to be privileged enough to come to work every day. I will tell you I've got that same feeling now, which to me, I hope it's the last job I ever have. And I'm going to keep doing it as long as they let me out. I think I'm going to let you do it as long as you want. You mentioned earlier, you're a custom distiller. In fact, you're the largest custom distillery in America. What exactly does that mean? And how do you go about leading that segment? Do you create special burbins that are unique and individualistic for different customers? Yeah, we do, David. So most people do contract manufacturing, right? So the big animal up in Indiana, they make a lot of whiskey for others, but they basically make what they make. And then you come by. It's not like you get influence over what they're making. At our place, it's totally custom. We interact with our clients early. Some of them come to us with a brand idea, but they don't even know what they really want in their whiskey. So we'll taste them through a full series of products to let them kind of define with us what they're looking for. And then we'll help them develop that actual mash bill to achieve that. So it's truly custom unlike any other organization. I'll tell you it's not as efficient. You ran over 50 plus mash bills last year, the way to be consistent is whiskey is to run the same thing every day. That's where you're going to get the most bang for your buck. But again, that's why this is unique offering. We're helping a lot of folks who have a dream to put a product on the shelf. We're helping them achieve that dream. So it's something that's pretty special and we're proud to be a part of. You know, when I was running young brands, I have to tell you, I had a lot of difficulty controlling my eating. You know, I'd go into the restaurants every day. How in the world are you and your team? Keep your drinking under control. I've had your bourbon. It's really good. I like bourbon too, David, but I can't imagine sitting around drinking it all day. It's a passion, but it's our job too. There's some who literally taste for a living. That's a different job. I don't have that job, but it's something that obviously in our industry writ large, we focus on people drinking responsibly. That's certainly a key part of our business and our industry. But I think what's most unique about bourbon and whiskey in general is the experiences that go on with it. That's what you remember. You don't remember sitting around knocking back like you did maybe in your early days with take-heal shots. What I most remember about bourbon and I think what most people are into it for now is those shared experiences and the stories that go on with that bourbon that you're sipping on. So that's what it's all about, the main, how much or how often. Mark, this has been so much fun and I want to have some more with a lightning round of Q&A. Are you ready for this? Let's give it a shot. Okay. What would be three words others would use to describe you? I hope trusting, fun to be around and I would love people to think about integrity when they think about me. What's your biggest joy builder? Shared experiences with people being happy. Your biggest joy blocker. I guess it would be people being unhappy. Your biggest pet peeve. I'm not a big fan of being around people who aren't willing to be honest. Who's your favorite general in history? I've read a lot about a lot of generals in history but I absolutely have to go with the ones that I've been fortunate enough to be around that are part of history. General McChrystal is one of the most respected guys that I've ever worked with and been fortunate to be around and see the dedication that he gave our nation for about more of years. If I got in your car and turned on the radio, what would I hear? It depends on the morning but you'd either hear 70s or you'd hear classic music . What's something about you that few people would know? That I'm really introverted. You don't believe that, do you? No, I really don't but I'll let you get away with it. We're about to wrap this up but I want to take you back for a minute. Tell us a childhood story that really impacted the kind of leader you are today . My parents were divorced probably when I was about eight years old. I was around my dad occasionally. We hunted everything's given. That's where I got my love of hunting from him but my mom was the, she was a parole officer, hard worker trying to figure out how to put kids through college and she was a huge sports fan and she supported everything we did. My sister was, like I said, high-end, very talented gymnast. My brother chose to work all his life. He literally started working at 15, didn't really do much of the sports stuff after a young age but team sports ripped for me. That's how I grew up. That's what I focused on and I think probably what stood out that kind of made me realize I was a leader is when I started seeing coaches try to use me to influence. Two coaches specifically, I had an Irish soccer coach early on who chose me as his guy to influence and I felt that every day when I was around him and then my high school soccer coach, he really was a football coach and got tagged, soccer wasn't a big deal in our high school but I could sense in every way that he was trying to use me to influence others and that's where I think I enjoyed it. I loved it. I thought this is what I should be doing as leading teams. You are an outstanding soccer player at Wake Forest. What did it mean to you when you got inducted into the Wake Forest Sports Hall of Fame? Do you remember your greatest collegiate highlight? Look, that was a huge honor. They had not inducted any soccer players. Soccer was not a lead sport when I was at Wake Forest. It's now one of the best programs in the nation. When I was there, we were a starter kit. We were literally, first year they had a Division I schedule was my freshman year. So we weren't eating in the special lunchroom with the football players or the basketball players. We were kind of the scrub club. So seeing soccer at Wake Forest and what it's become and to be a part of that early on, that was a huge honor for me and my wife who I met at Wake Forest as well. So to be there on that wall is pretty cool to see it. I tell my wife all the time and she thinks I'm weird but I can very specifically remember goals that I had, how I scored them. Probably the one that sticks out is the one where I broke the ACC scoring record my senior year and I had a break away from midfield. I think everybody knew I was likely going to score. I scored this goal. I ran over and my whole fraternity was there to flesh-pow me on the field and that was probably one of the coolest experiences in the soccer career for sure. You've mentioned your wife a few times. Tell us about your wife and how she handled all the pressure that comes with the kinds of jobs you've had. And now you've had high-pressure jobs in the service and now in a commercial basis. Yeah, David, you know, having a sounding board and a support mechanism is huge. Very fortunate to have met my wife in college. You know, I went in the Army, promised her that I was going to do three years and go get a job. That's what she signed up for. She moved to Colorado right out of college and started her ride of 25 years in service. Now I mentioned earlier it is the families who take the brunt of it. We signed up. We're doing what we do. The families didn't sign up. I've got a son who he was born two years before I got into Delta. So he was 16 years old when I came out of Delta. So he grew up with that. He grew up with dad being gone. He grew up with all of those things. So I think you have to have a warrior wife to put up with that stuff. She's been priceless to everything we've done. She's the one that has kept me straight. She's now even more of a sounding board because I'm talking about people in a civilian role and she's been there. She's done that. She's had some of the same types of situations. So it's even much more of a sounding board now that I can use. Last question. What's the single most important bit of advice you can give to aspiring leaders ? If you're not having fun at what you're doing, go find something else. I can't imagine trying to slog away and not enjoying what you're doing. I'm one you're never going to perform to the level that you could. And then I'll add one more because I think it's critical important. I think it's the get stuff done piece. There's so many leaders in David. I know you've seen them where they get bound up and they can't make decisions and keep moving. You're going to learn from everyone those decisions, whether it works out the way you thought it was or not. But the worst thing is to not make decisions and watch things just stall. So I took one and made it two. Well, that's great advice. And you know, it's really been great, Mark, to have this conversation with you. Congratulations on all your success at Bardstown Bourbon and just the impact that you've made on the world. It really is incredible. But I do have a little bit of advice for you. Yes, sir. I wouldn't do any more backflips if I were you. You look really good. You're healthy. You're a good shape. That's a gymnastics to your sister. All right. I tell everyone, don't do backflips after 50. Thank you. Thanks so much. I appreciate it. Thank you, David. Thanks for having me. Well, you can just hear it in the way he talks. Mark just loves leading and being a part of a team from his soccer playing days throughout his service in Delta Force to walking the floor at the distillery. He's so good at building and commanding strong, high-performing teams. Now, if we want our teams to operate at the highest level possible, we've got to follow Mark's example and equip them properly. That means setting them up for success with the right resources, whether that's capital or training or more staffing and then giving them the freedom to go out there and execute the mission. So here's an idea to apply this takeaway in your week. Shoot an email to someone on your team that you trust. Ask them where they need either more resources or more freedom to get their work done. It's a simple first step, but it's so important if you want to set your team up for success. So do you want to know how leaders lead? What we learned today is that great leaders prepare their teams and equip their teams properly. Coming up next on how leaders lead is Stan Druckenmiller, arguably the number one investor in the world. I'm not just throwing that title around. Stan really is the greatest investor of our time and he knows how to lead in his industry. And we tell you here how and why he has generated such great results year after year after year. I've always been a risk taker and even on shoot for the sky, you're not going to get to the sky. And you're going to hear all this in the episode next Thursday. Thanks again for tuning in to another episode of How leaders lead where every Thursday you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world. I make it a point to give you something simple on each episode that you can apply to your business so that you will become the best leader that you can be. [BLANK_AUDIO] [ Silence ]