Welcome to How Leaders Lead, where every week you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world. I break down the key learning so that by the end of the episode, you'll have something simple you can apply as you develop into a better leader. That's what this podcast is all about. Well, I couldn't be more excited about this conversation because the new NFL season kicks off this week. Yeah, that's right. We're gonna call his back, baby. And it's the perfect time to sit down and talk with my friend, Roger Goodell, the commissioner of the National Football League. He is starting his 16th year as NFL commissioner. And if you follow the news at all, you know Roger has had to make some tough decisions and deal with his fair share of conflict. We certainly don't have time to go through all of them, but there's certainly a lot we can learn from how he leads. Because let's face it. Roger's the chief executive of the most popular pro sports league in the world. That kind of success comes with its own challenges. What does great leadership look like when your product is so darn popular? How do you fight against the complacency that often comes when you're succeeding? Keep listening so you can learn exactly how to keep pushing the status quo, no matter what level of success you've achieved. And let's face it, the NFL has been on a huge run. So here's my conversation with my good friend and soon to the yours, Roger Goodell. You know, Roger, I wish I was there to greet you in person, but I got to tell you, you've got one of the strongest handshakes that I've ever experienced in my life. I feel like I got to get ready for it. Did you get that from hanging around all those football players? Where's that strong handshake come from? Well, I think you should mean what you do. One, but two, is it probably does come a little bit from shaking hands with a bunch of big guys and strong guys. But I get that a lot when it comes to the draft's bear hug. And that is something that I've learned to be defensive about. So to me, playing offense is a good thing in this case. The commissioner's signature is on every single football. What was that experience like the first time you saw it when you took the job? You know, you never really think about that when you're going to be commissioner of the NFL. You really don't fast forward to that. So the day after I was elected, somebody gave me a football with my name on it. And the first time you look at that, it's sort of startling and it hits you a little bit. The funny story though, the first game that it was, first regular season game where it was actually used, I believe it was a Sunday night game. And I believe it was in Pittsburgh against Miami. And John Madden and Al Michaels were doing the game and I was up in the booth. And the reality is that the opening kickoff fell off the tee. And I said, this is not a good start. And coach Madden gave me such a hard time about it. And I actually have it in my office right on the other side of the room. And what it keeps like that is, you know, when you became commissioner, was there anything that caught you by surprise and taking on that job? Something that you didn't expect? You know, David, I was chief operating officer and I didn't think there'd be many surprises. I think the biggest surprise to me in reality was I can't leave the office and go aside. Like I did as chief operating officer, I gave him my best advice. But at the end of the day, he had to sit there and make the decision. And I realized there was nobody else to come in the office. I was there to make that decision. I had to think about it. I had to come to the best conclusion I could. You feel that responsibility and you realize there's no place to turn. You've got to make that decision. You know, speaking of making decisions, what would be the toughest decision you ever had to make in the seat so far? It would be hard to really pick one. I would say the biggest challenge for us probably was COVID and trying to work through that because none of us had any experience. None of us really truly knew what was happening any more than the rest of us. We were all seeking the best medical advice. We had to put a plan together to play under circumstances that we had to ensure the safety of our players and other personnel, our fans where we were permitted. And that was the biggest challenge of bringing everyone together to accomplish that. So that would probably be the highest on my list. There were lots of other challenges and a lot of difficult decisions. But that period of time was very, very tough. Roger, what would you say would be the most fun part of your job? It seems like a really glamorous job. I know you got a lot of challenges, but what's the most fun part of it? I don't think I'd use the word glamorous, David, but I would say that it's an incredible privilege. I love this league. It's essentially the only thing I've done in my career is work for the NFL. That's how much I believe in it. And I think I'm on 40 years this season. And to me, it's the fact that what you do has so much impact on people's lives. And for years, I think we as the NFL have learned that lesson, 9/11 was a lesson when my predecessor Paul Tagaboo's commissioner and how we could help heal the country in some small way. COVID was another lesson of could we provide a little hope and inspiration during a very difficult time for our country? When you realize the impact that what you do has on other people and so many people, I think that's really powerful. You know, if there's one thing that I've learned, Roger, from doing my research is that you are persistent. You can underline persistent. And when you want something, you go get it. Now, walk me through how you got your start in the NFL. Well, persistent, I would agree with. Relentless may be another word I'd add in there, which I say often. I graduated from college. It's what I always wanted to do. I sent well over 50 letters. I had well over 50 rejections. No one even really gave me an opening. Eventually, someone in our NFL office who has since retired and passed away, Don Weiss, responded, and I didn't let go to your point of being persistent. And I always say there's a fine line between being persistent and a pain in the ass. So I was always very careful to let him know how strongly and how badly I wanted this, but I was also cautious of not being a pain in the ass. And eventually, he responded enough to say if you're ever in the area, come by the office, and I'm happy to meet with you. Well, I said I am, and I'm happy to come in whenever you want. I said, how about eight tomorrow? And I said, fine, the problem, David, I was in Pittsburgh. And so I had to get in the car and drive most of the night to get there and be there at eight o'clock the next morning, but I couldn't miss an opportunity. And so you have to take advantage of every opening you get. And I think that's been the biggest challenge getting in, getting in the door. Did you keep any of those letters? Just kind of remind you how difficult it was to get in and remind you to be relentless? Fortunately, he did keep all the letters and I have them. Is that right? Yes. And I love looking at it. And I remember talking to him when he left, I said, Don, why did you hire me? And he said, you're a nice guy. And I said, well, honestly, I was all taken back. I said, honestly, didn't you see anything? He said, no, you had the smarts and the passion. I could tell that. But it was a lesson to me that people want to work and have people work for them that not only can do a great job and perform, but also that you enjoy being with. Yeah. I want to take you way back to 1986. And as I understand it, you're an intern with the NFL and you were Pete Rosel's driver at Super Bowl 20. And Rosel was the commissioner at the time. What do you remember about that experience? I remember every moment. And it was a unique opportunity for me to be close to somebody who I considered my idol professionally. I always admired Pete Rosel for the way he did his job. I thought the role of commissioner was really extraordinary. And for me to be able to have five days, six days with him, his family, his friends, and see it from the inside was invaluable. And so it didn't matter if it was carrying his bags, driving him, taking care of his guests, working on tickets. There was a five or six day experience that I could never get back. And as much as I admired Pete from the outside, the more I got to know, the more I loved him. What was it about his leadership you think that really set him apart? I think what was great about Pete is he had control of his ego. He understood that he had to orchestrate over the period of time up to 28 teams and get them to come together. So he had to bring two different leagues together, the AFL and the NFL. And how he was able to manage that and manage the room, he was able to orche strate all that. He had people speak up about various things. And he didn't always have to make the point. He would have other people do it. And he was able to sort of bring all that together and understand it had this great sense of timing of when he brought an issue to the floor to be resolved because he talked them out. He had everyone sort of find their positions, express their positions. But then he knew exactly when to make that compromise and when to get it done. And I think that's really valuable to the NFL, including what is an extraordinary vision because I think he understood the role of television and what that could do for the NFL better than anyone in our history. Well he is certainly renowned for his leadership as are you. And football has been a passion of yours from a very early age. And here we are kicking off another season, which has got to be a thrill for you. How would you describe the state of the game today, Roger? I've often said there's never been a better time to be a fan. I think the quality of the game, the competition, the safety of the game, the incredible stars that we have particularly at the quarterback position. And they're so young still. So many of our quarterbacks and star players really have so many wonderful days ahead of them. I think that's exciting for the game, for our fans, for our teams. And when you see that competition, we always look at how many teams can go from last to first. We're one of a few leagues who have that kind of competition. Unfortunately teams go from first to last, but that creates hope in every market prior to the season, which is what we're in the business of doing. And people can come in and say, are we going to be the Cincinnati Bengals of the 2021 season this year? So every fan has that. We all look forward to the unusual or the surprise moments are going to happen. Either as individual players, just go to a different level or whether a team can rise up to that challenge. So that's what excites me as the unknown. Your team tells me that you walk into the office every day with the desire to make the league just a little bit better today than it was yesterday. What's a recent improvement you've made that you're really proud of? I would say this for the context of what we're talking about today. One of the big challenges I had when I became commissioner is the league was so successful that when you start talking about, well, we should do this and we should do that. We should focus on this. A lot of people reacted to saying, why? We're already successful. And my answer to that is because we can get better and it's sometimes harder to drive change in a successful organization for that reason, that people are somewhat resistant to change and why take the risk. We're already at a great level. My view is the NFL has got so much more potential and we can grasp that and we can achieve that. If we continue to be smart about the decisions we make, we continue to act like we're number two and continue to find new ways of doing things. So this year coming into the season of big change for us, we have our first new game media partner in Amazon Prime on Thursday night football. First time we've moved to a streaming platform exclusively and I think it's going to change the way football is watched over the years because of the technology. But I also think it's exciting to have a new partner that is excited to be on Thursday night football and going to promote it to a level that's never happened before. So that kind of thing really excites me. I understand that you take regular trips to Silicon Valley to meet with that companies. What's the motivation behind that and what do you hope to come back with after those trips? A new perspective and understanding of what's happening in technology and with companies. We don't just go see companies that we'll likely do business with. We actually see companies that we admire that are finding new solutions out there using their technology, their products and try to see how we can apply that to ourselves and how we can make the NFL better. If a partnership somehow evolves from that, that's fine but that's not the objective. And in most cases that doesn't happen. The reality is what we do is we understand other industries better, other companies better and how we make the NFL better. Speaking of Silicon Valley, I heard you met with Steve Jobs at Apple headquarters and in one of your meetings, he gave you the seat of an idea that you executed to improve the fan experience in every stadium. Tell us about it. First off, Steve Jobs is an icon. So it was fun for me to get his perspective on the NFL. He was very engaged. He said, one thing I would really think about is, and I know this is going to sound at this stage rather old, he said, "You really got to figure out how to get Wi-Fi in your stadiums so that you can improve the experience for fans in the stadium." And we set out to do that. Now obviously we've been able to do that. We have a Verizon who's got wonderful 5G. So we've long bypassed that time. But what it told me was the importance of technology in improving the experience for our fans, whether it's on television or on media platforms or whether it's in our stadium. And the importance of doing both. Our experience in the stadium is really important through media. And we saw that in 2020 when we had empty stadiums. It's a tougher experience for people to watch something where nobody's watching it. It's not a studio game. The fans are a big part of the game. We'll be back with the rest of my conversation with Roger Goodell in just a moment. But I want to ask you, how do you stay motivated once you reach a certain level of success? Well not too long ago, I sat down with Wendy Clark, who's a fantastic ad executive and the global CEO of Dinsu International. She's the walking definition of success. But she still sees herself as an underdog. In our conversation, you'll hear exactly how to lean into that underdog mentality and use it as fuel to fight complacency. We always have to take the challenge of mindset because if you take the challenge of mindset, you care. You always think of yourself as David going up against Goliath, right? And you try harder. You don't sit back on your laurels. You don't think, I've got this done and then Pepsi comes along and eats your lunch. So I think the challenge of mindset just keeps you hungry. It keeps you focused. It never lets you rest. It drives innovation. It drives ingenuity. It drives excitement. And frankly, it doesn't matter that your company is 120 years old, 130 years old. You are the steward of that brand. In that moment, you have a responsibility to leave it better than you found it. Don't miss my conversation with Wendy, episode 43 here on How Leaders Lead. I know you're a serial learner and whether it's from conversations with other CEOs or other leaders, you're always trying to get better as you're just talking about, you know, why you visit Silicon Valley. How else are you sharpening your acts and improving your own performance? Just being prepared every day to not fall to the trap is that you've been doing this for 17 or 18 years. You have all the answers. Just seek out and find solutions to complex problems by looking down the road far enough, but also not getting comfortable that we've cracked the stake. We've got a lot of work to do. It seems like you see complacency as a real enemy that you try to fight every day. What do you do to really jar your organization to make people not get so comfortable? I mean, you are really successful. I'm at the league has never been more popular. How do you jar people in to getting out of their comfort zone? Well, David, I was probably a little bold on that because actually in 2006 when we had the search process to become commissioner at the final presentations, there were five candidates, and that was exactly my theme. The biggest risk we have is the NFL going forward is complacency. It was probably a little bold to say that to people who were enjoying a great deal of success, but I really do mean it. In fact, that theme has been intertwined with most of my comments to the ownership over the years, but most specifically and most recently at our annual meeting this year. I really do believe the NFL is at a level of success that we've never been before, but I think our opportunities are so great right now that it's on us to seize that and missing that opportunity would be a failure for all of us. I think when you can identify the opportunities and the potential for success, I think people get that and I think it's your job to identify that and make that vision clear for them and they understand if doing nothing is a risk in and of itself. So let's seize that opportunity. You know, speaking of identifying opportunities, you seem to be really making a big push to make the game global. I mean, that had to be a pretty jarring thought. I mean, we're going to go all the way to London and play football. I mean, come on, think about the air travel. I mean, you got to be kidding me, Roger. Listen, it's our biggest growth opportunity. The world is shrinking. The opportunity to be able to reach fans on a global basis and partners is easier. And frankly, every time we introduce our game to a new market and to a new fan base, they embrace it and you see how those fans go from being a novice fan to a very sophisticated fan. When we play in London, which we're now doing three times this year, there are more jerseys from 32 different teams than any stadium I know. The fans are sophisticated about the rules, the strategy, they know when to boo , when to clap, it's like being in a stadium in the States. And I think that's a tribute to the fact that our game has incredible potential . We just have to find the right ways to share it and grow it with our global audience. And immediately making that easier, we used to play preseason games internationally because of the issues you're talking about. Most coaches would say, hey, what are you doing? We can't fly overseas. But what we found, the first game we played over there, one of the teams I think was a Giants went on and won the Super Bowl that year and they actually credited playing internationally as part of that reason because it was a chance for them to take a breath. They were all overseas together and it brought unity to the team. And coaches saw a different side of this. And so this year, the first game overseas will be our 100th international game, regular season game. And the last team of the 32 is Green Bay and they'll be playing in that game. And what we've been able to do is demonstrate a great experience that can be done for the teams but also not in any way be negative from a competitive standpoint. So teams have actually embraced it and we actually have more teams wanting to go than we can handle. And that's a good problem to have. As you say, that the NFL has never been in a stronger position. And recently you negotiated a massive deal, $113 billion for television rights for the next decade. What does this deal make possible for all parties involved? And what did it take for you to really get that deal done? Well, we negotiated that during the 2020 season. So that in and of itself was pretty difficult. The biggest objective here was to continue our prominence on the broadest reach of television and other media platforms. So for us, it was one thing to get the right economics but it was more important for us to get partners who were going to take our content and make it even more attractive by using innovative technology and to put more behind the promotion and give people a different way to view NFL football. And then we wanted it to be able to reach the broadest audience and broadcast television still has the biggest platform right now and has the biggest viewership. And that was important for us. But we also had to look to how we were going to be able to adjust to the changing media landscape which is changing hourly, daily, and it's something that we wanted to be prepared for. So for us, getting into more digital opportunities to be able to take one package on Thursday night as we talked about with Amazon Prime and put that on a streaming package to be able to work with our partners to figure out other digital opportunities, to be able to have opportunities on social media, to be able to engage fans where they wanted but also how they wanted and to be able to create new opportunities for them to do that. All of that was critical in the context of that and to bring all that together with obviously the right economics but also the right opportunity for us to continue to grow our games through these great partners. You know, I wouldn't be serving our listeners well if I didn't ask you to walk through what you see as the keys to negotiation because you do a lot of it. What are two or three things people should be thinking about the next time they 're trying to get a deal done that's really been effective in your own negotiations? Well number one, David, we really try to pick the best of the best as partners. We're fortunate to have that but I think we've been really careful in selecting partners who we think can really add value through that partnership. We also really look for alignment, we look for partners that have aligned interests and make sure that our deals however we negotiate them were clear about our objectives internally and frequently with whoever we're negotiating with to make sure we achieve those objectives and we both understand what those objectives are so we can both create value. And we really look at creating value for our partners and we want the negotiations to be successful but we more importantly want the deal to be successful and that we can work together and create value that we may not have imagined in the midst of a negotiation. And so at the end of a deal we want people saying you exceeded expectations, we exceeded expectations, it's been a great deal. And I think your last negotiation is probably important in the context of your next negotiation because if you don't have a track record for that people look suspect at you. And so we've always been able to achieve that and I think that's important. Have you ever used the tactic of just walking away from the table and saying hey we're so far apart? Oh yeah. No I think sometimes you have to do that David. I think you can impress some people how important a particular issue is to them but until you walk away I think they don't know that you've really reached your end game. And I think it's really important to be able to do that but you can't do that bluffing David. I think that's the real key point. If you're going to play that card and you're going to be able to do it you better be prepared to walk the walk. And so for us when we do it we have to be really certain that we're prepared to walk away from it when we do that. And so we're pretty clear in our intent and if we can't get there we will walk and I think your actions have to support your words. If you're just doing that as a negotiating tactic I don't think it's effective. You know recently the Bronco's organization sold for a whopping $4.65 billion. What comes to mind when you think about the impact you've had on the value of these franchises? Well listen it starts with this only 32. We're relatively conservative in our ownership policies. We could probably open our policies up. We have pretty conservative debt covenants. We want to make sure that our teams are run properly and that we're not over leveraged but also we are well capitalized. And so we look for owners who one come in and meet that structure. Two can provide value ultimately and actually make our franchises worth more money by the way they operate their franchises. And by the way I'd add they also are very active on league level. We work very closely with our membership on committees. That are made up of owners on most of our big issues whether it's labor, TV or any other major issue. And they have not only a large say but they provide us a great deal of direction about how to move forward. And then we take it to the membership which is 32 clubs and we have to get a minimum of 24 votes David. I've had CEOs tell me that's crazy. How can you do that? I personally look at it opposite. I look at it is if we can come up with a solution that 24 of 32 successful business people and organizations can come up with you probably reach a pretty good solution. What do you expect to those eight that don't go with you? I mean how do you get those guys to go for? All we have to do is get the 24. I always seek to try to get 32 because I want there to be not just a consensus I want there to be unanimity. That's not always possible. And there are a lot of times clubs would vote for any number of reasons why they're going to vote against it. But I would say the vast majority of votes that we've had since I was commissioner have been in the 2930 clubs voting in favor of it. And I think that reinforces my point. Work hard to build that consensus to make sure everyone has input into it and get them all to feel ownership in that. You're a tremendous business person and you've done such a great job growing the NFL. But I hear you tend to look at things more from a fan perspective than a business perspective. Can you give me a for instance in how this plays out and how you do your job day to day? We just launched a product called NFL Plus. It's a subscription service that's a direct to consumer offering that will have a number of features to it that we think will be exciting for our fans. Maybe a little bit over a year ago they came to me with a version of this. And my view of it was it wasn't putting the consumer first. It wasn't what does the consumer want? It was more from the other side of here's what we have to offer the consumer. And I think it's really important to try to meet the consumer's demand but more importantly try to be ahead of what the consumers may want. And the key to that is access ultimately for us. I think fans want more access to great content, more access to the players or coaches, more access to inside the game, more access behind all of the brands and shields. They really want to understand what's going on behind that veil. And so for us that's what we really seek to do. And you have to put your fan head on which they are very open when you meet with them and I reach out and we have fan forums. We have lots of opportunity to hear from fans and listen to them. One of the things that I've been focused on over the years and happy that we changed in the context of our season structure was reducing the number of preseason games and increasing the number of regular season games. We did that after years of work not only to make our game safer but also to put our best foot forward and always lead with quality. And preseason games weren't our highest quality. They're non-competitive, our greatest players don't always play. We wanted to use them as an appropriate thing to prepare for the season and there's exciting elements of preseason which I'm a big fan of. But the end of the day nothing replaces a regular season game. Absolutely. I understand you've instituted a year-round calendar. Talk to me about that strategy. Well, we can't play despite expanding the season to 17 regular season games. We can't ignore do I want to play football all year round. I think the beauty of our season we're probably the shortest of all professional seasons by a large margin. We certainly have less games than almost all the other leagues. And I think that's an advantage for us in the context of quality over quantity, ultimately. So for us, we wanted to build the off season so it could build excitement for the next season. So the combine where we evaluate the college players coming in and fans love that. And they love to hear the stories of how these players are going through their journey of becoming an NFL player. The draft is the ultimate in that. Whether you're looking at the draft of how my team's going to get better or in many of our what I would consider are more casual fans, you're looking to say, how did that individual get to that place? What did he overcome? How did he get to this place to earn the opportunity to have an NFL career? That's become a showcase that we have 55 million people watching the draft over three days. We have half a million people watching it in person. And we've made it a real event, again, going back to a point we made earlier, taking the risk to move it out of New York, move it out of Radio City, and to move it around and try to share it with more of our fans. And the fans have actually made it a better event. And so for us, it was just giving people that opportunity through events, even announcing our schedule now, which is, you know, we spend a lot of time and it's an important element of how we produce our content and play it out through our networks, is the schedule of games. It's got to be competitive. It's got to be attractive from a fan standpoint. And we have to balance a lot of issues, but we make that into show now and in multiple networks, pick it up when we do it. So it's all a part of the show. You are made for TV, baby. You got all kinds of great stuff happening. And by the way, the NFL draft, you made that huge. I mean, did you have that kind of vision that it would become that huge? I mean, you want to talk about fan interests. You know, I live in Louisville. I remember when you were in Nashville, you had 600,000 fans in Nashville come to the event. Holy cow, did you ever see this? I mean, this was a tremendous idea. I would be misleading you at the least, David, to tell you that my first draft, I think, was in 1984. We had it in a ballroom at one of the hotels here in New York on 7th Avenue. If there were 100 fans there, I'd be surprised. And I remember the story when ESPN came to then Commissioner Pete Rosell and said we'd like to cover the draft. Now, they obviously were young sports network. They were looking for content. But I think the reaction from our standpoint was, boy, you really are desperate for sports content if you want the draft. But ESPN helped us really build that. And eventually, we started moving it to different venues in New York. Obviously, we moved it to primetime, which I think was a huge step in the 2008 or '09 period of time. We shortened the rounds to make it more attractive for fans. We brought players in, which I think was exciting. And then I think the real topper to that was when we moved it around. And we gave H City, like Nashville, an opportunity to present it the way they wanted to. And I think that was magical for us. And then the interaction with the fans, I think it's all been really important. You know, I love watching just so I can watch you get booed. Well, you're probably booing right there. I can hear you. I'm going, "Hey, what's that like when you get booed so loudly, Roger?" I'm going, "You know, David, I always remember that the first time that really happened, I think it was 2011 in Radio City, we had just called a lockout. So we were two months into a lockout. And when I first came up to the podium, it was not only deafening. I could actually physically feel it. It almost pushed me back. But it was really good in this sense. You felt the frustration of the fans, the fact that they obviously didn't want a lockout. They wanted their football. And if you're between them and football, you got a problem. And I understood that. But I also understood how important it was for us to get the right agreement so the game could continue to grow. And you have to go through pain to get to the right place. And that was clearly a painful experience for us. Roger, what's something about getting to announce the draft picks that most people wouldn't know? Can you give us a little behind the scenes secret or fact? Well, I think the biggest thing is the pronunciations because you do not want to mess that up. Because this is a big moment for these young men and their families. So I really focus on that. I really try not to chop that. And there's some tough ones. But we try to get that right. We try to make the experience for the fans great. One of my favorite draft stories though was in Philadelphia. We had well over 100 and somewhat thousand. And Philly fans are vocal. Let's put it that way. And they were booing me well. But then I went back and Drew Pearson from the Dallas Cowboys. We sometimes have veteran players who will participate and actually announce one of their picks. And we were, he was sort of on deck. So he was a pick away and he said, are they going to boo me? And I looked at him. I said, Drew, I love you. But they're going to kill you. Because you're a Dallas Cowboys. This is Philadelphia Eagles territory. And he seemed somewhat surprised. And he said, what do you think? And I said, my suggestion, you go out there and have fun with it. Go out there and talk about the Dallas Cowboys and put it right in front of him . And it was one of the great moments of the draft because he just went out there and talked about Cowboys and how great it is to be a cowboy. And Philadelphia fans were going crazy. He was having a good time. But that's what it's all about. Is to show the person out of our players, but also to engage with those fans. And that was a moment to me that it clicked that we want people to have that engagement. It was all done and fun, although there probably be a lot of Philly fans and cowboy fans who may not agree with it. It was all fun, but it was a great moment. It sort of demonstrates the importance of our fan involvement. I believe every great leader must have a plan to get better. In fact, I think it's so important that I actually send out a weekly leadership plan. Each week, the plan focuses on a different leadership topic and gives you actionable steps you can take to develop that skill on a practical level. Think about it like a leadership development program. Only it's simple. No fluff practical skills will help you lead your team to success. You can get free access at howleaderslead.com/plan. That's howleaderslead.com/plan. Obviously, not everyone's going to clap for you in a role like you have. You've got a lot of tough decisions. I was thinking about your job, and I think the title of the NFL commissioner could just as easily be CEO of Crisis Management. You're dealing with everything from concussions, sexual harassment, to player misconduct. What process do you use, Roger, to get to the right answer? Because these are difficult issues. Well, David, a couple of things. First off, I think if Pete Rizello often told me, he said, "They don't cheer for commissioners." And they shouldn't, right? Their passion and their loyalty is to the clubs and to the NFL, maybe in general. But it's a commissioner, that's not your role. And so operate that way, expect that. But also, your job is to do the right things for the game, ultimately, even if that's unpopular. I think the good news on the issues you raise, I spend very little time in the vast majority of my time on things that are more exciting. Those are difficult. And I think the most important thing is to have the right process, to have the right people working on it, to do the evaluation openly and honestly, and make sure that you hear different perspectives. When you're making decisions, it's really important to hear alternative perspectives. If you feel so strongly about a particular issue, you shouldn't be afraid to put it out there and let people shoot at it. And try to see if it stands up to the criticism. And listen, a lot of these things, you're never going to make everybody happy. Sometimes you're never going to make anyone happy. But the reality of it is you've got to try to do the right thing. And the right way to do that is to be thoughtful. Hear every bit of information you can. When we make a bad decision, the thing I most regret is if we didn't think of something. If we didn't analyze a perspective appropriately, there are a lot of decisions, as you know, that you make and we make thousands of them in a very short period of time, you can't be right on all of them. The bottom line is you want to make sure you're thoughtful though and you try to make sure that you've thought of those issues, those things that come up, you're going to miss on those sometimes. There are times when everybody misses, believe me, I miss more than I would care to recall. When you look back and you think of a time when you think the NFL got it wrong and how you took that experience and made your team better? I don't know if I'd say we got it wrong. I think there were a lot of things that I think we could have gotten too faster and we could have made changes quicker that could have made a difference. As an example, one of the things I think about a lot is it relates to on the field or some of the techniques that became used in our game that I thought were unsafe. They created potential for greater risk of injury and we stepped in to try to get ahead of that and take those techniques out. It's not popular because fans think that you're changing their game and one of the things I've often said, I don't think people believe that we could make our game safer and still make it better. They thought you were changing something that I love and it would never be the same. We had to convince them of both and that was a really difficult challenge for us. Having that involved changing culture, we had to change the culture of the NFL and people understanding that you can play the game this way, it's safer and it's not going to enjoy the thing we all love about the game, the competitors, the hard hits, but that we would keep our players safer. I think we've proven that over the years. I was watching a historical special on the NFL and the safety issues been around since Teddy Roosevelt. He got together with Harvard and Princeton and tried to change the rules. It's a never ending battle as you go forward. You're right. I actually have read all that and I think about that in the early 1900s. At that time, there were, this is before helmets, but there were skull fractures and players actually died on the field from that. The helmets came along and Teddy Roosevelt forced a lot of changes in the game because he believed in the values of football and I do too. When I think about that all the time, there are so many positives from playing this game that I would never give up for a moment, but we still owe it to everyone to make the game as safe as possible and I think we've done that. Yeah, I think you've definitely made a lot of great changes on that front. When you have challenge and conflict, I understand that you get calmer. People describe your leadership as you are calmer when there's thunder and lightning out there. How do you stay calm in these tougher situations? You do have big ones. Everyone loves conflict. The media loves conflict. They love crisis, but I think it's really important to keep a level head and think through it. What really is happening? Where is the problem? Identify that correctly and start focusing on solutions. It's not always a straight line. It's not always popular. It sometimes means you're going to have to go through some rough waters to get there, but ultimately you've got to think long term and you've got to make those tough decisions that require you to have a calm head and to require you to think through it and not be emotional. I like to think in my life, at least most bad decisions I made, I was emotional . As you know, a lot of times emotion isn't help us think clearly. I think when you can try to bring it down and just try to think through it clearly without emotion, not that I don't have a lot of emotion, believe me, I think that's going to lead you to a better conclusion. You mentioned COVID earlier as being one of the great challenges that you had and you're the only league in the world to play every single game during the pandemic. As I understand it, you got the union degree that if a game isn't played, the players aren't paid. How do you find common ground on that one? Well, it's even more complicated because in March of 2020, literally before the world is shutting down a few days, we had completed our CBA of 10-year extension, but the players were actually voting on a Sunday morning. I remember that vote came in by probably over 2,000 votes and I think it was approved by just around 30 votes. It was really close. I think back of that now, had we not actually had that agreement and the players had an agreement, the challenges we would have had. The fact is that we had this foundation, which is our new CBA, we had to now go into what I would consider a whole new CBA negotiation. We called it the mini-CBA that summer that dealt with issues like medical care. How are we going to keep our players safe? What would we do to the CBA because we fully expected our revenue was going to go down dramatically and that could have affected the cap. We actually reached an agreement essentially where we subsidized the cap, if you want to call it, in return for making sure that if we weren't all together on this, we didn't play. We weren't going to get paid. We were all in the deep water together. I think ultimately that was the key, is that we were all working towards one goal, keep people safe, play our full season, so two goals, I guess, but that was a mantra for us. We were all incented to do that and disincented it if we didn't reach that goal . We all had something at risk. I know your dad had a huge impact on you. Will you tell us about the document you have on your wall to remind you about one of the big lessons that he taught you? I do, and I walk by it every day, and I think about it so frequently because my dad was appointed from a congressional seat in New York, as US Senator when Bobby Kennedy was assassinated. Shortly after you got into a Senate seat and he only had two years left in the term, I remember sitting down with the family and he said, "I'm going to stand up for something that I believe in. I'm going to introduce legislation to end the Vietnam War. The president, who is a Republican as I am, will not be happy, and more than likely I'll lose this election because they won't be happy and they'll want Senator in there that's going to follow the administration's lead." And I'm not. He did it for the right reasons. He ended up losing the election. And what had taught me, David, and the reason I keep that legislation, it's a copy of the legislation from '68, I keep it there to remind me that you have to have the courage to do the right thing, even though you know that they're going to be significant negative consequences. But when I make a decision, I know people will disagree. Calling a lockout is a very hard thing to do, but I knew we had to do it to get to a better place. And you just have to have that courage to do it. I think so many people know the right answer, but don't have the courage to do it. And that was a lesson that I carry with me from that moment, and I actually shared that with the owners at that same speech in 2006 of why I thought I was prepared for this, that I would have the courage to do the right thing. That's an awesome story. Where'd your passion and love for football originate, Roger? Were you like a superstar in high school and college? I'd love to tell you that, David, but I know you won't believe me. So anyhow, say, "Hey, you've seen my golf game." Yeah. I've seen your handshakes, so you scare the hell out of me. I do not want to have a collision with you, okay? Well, that was the only thing I was good at as the collision part, but I grew up in Washington, DC. We had one of the public parks, Kitty Corner, from our elementary school, John Eaton Elementary School, was called John Eaton Playground. And we used to go over there almost every day. We throw our jackets down in the corner. We played tackle football with no pads, no nothing. And we did it until the sun came down. And I just loved the game of football. I loved the strategy. I loved the contact. I loved the teamwork. I loved every aspect of it. And somebody gave me a Duke football when I was about six years old, and I slept with that for weeks. People tease me that I still sleep with it, but my wife can vouch. I don't. But the reality is, I just fell in love with the game, and I loved playing it. I realized that I wasn't going to be an NFL player. I probably regret one thing in my life, and not playing college football. But I chose to pursue a career in the NFL from a different perspective. I thought that was a better approach. And that's when I fell in love with Pete Rosel and what he did as commissioner. And I always felt that was such an important way to contribute to the game, if I couldn't play. And I started when I was in college saying, I want to pursue a career in the NFL. I studied what the league did. I studied what Pete Rosel did. I read everything I could. When I graduated from college, I wrote my data letter, and I said, thank you for the opportunity to go to college. And I have a couple of things I want to make sure I do in life. And that's one, to make you proud, and to be commissioner of the NFL. And that was probably the most foolish statement I could ever made. I would have loved to have been there when my dad read it, because you probably laughed out loud. That's like saying you want to be president when you're a kid and having to come true. Well, it's almost worse if you look at it from numbers, Sam, because we're 102 years old and I think I'm the eighth commissioner. This has been so much fun, Roger. And I want to have a little bit more before I let you go with my lightning round here. So you ready for this? Okay. I don't know. All right. Here we go. What are three words that others would use to describe you? Stubborn, determined, and I hope fair. If you could be one person for a day beside yourself, who would it be and why? Nobody. With all due respect. I always say I'm never going to want to be somebody else. I am the most fortunate person in the world. I never spend a moment thinking about anybody else in the sense of I want to be that person. I love what I do. Grateful for my family, friends, coworkers, and this opportunity. So I don't spend a single moment thinking about that. I actually believe that because you've been doing this for 40 years and you saw it. This is what you wanted to do. I've never had anybody answer it that way. Somebody will at least give me something. What's your biggest pet peeve? People don't give you a hundred percent effort. Now are you allowed to have a favorite football team? I'm probably allowed to. Interesting enough, I grew up as a Baltimore Colts fan. And for those who are a little younger, the Colts were in Baltimore until 1984. I then became a Washington Redskins fan for a long period of time. Now the Washington commanders. But when I really started a league, you lose your individual team fandom and you become fans of the 32 teams. What's your superpower? I guess I would probably go back to that relentless determination and you say can't to me and I say can. I love it when somebody says I can't do something. What's something about you that few people would know? My wife always teases about this because she answered this question so I'm going to give the same answer is you would think you'd love Rocky, which I do. My taste in movies is incredibly broad, same with music. But I can get really teared up over a rom-com. How's that? That's a good one. The players are obviously essential to your product that you sell every week. When they get in trouble and they can't be on the field, everyone suffers. How are you investing in the development of these young men? Well David, a couple points. First, I am incredibly amazed at the group of players that we have. They are amazing young men. What they do on the field we all know is extraordinary. What they do in the community, I'm not sure people appreciate enough, they are remarkable. As a group and as individuals, I am just incredibly impressed and honored to work with them. So I have great respect. And frankly, many of them call, many of them text, many of them are open about suggestions. And they are smart. They make our game better, not just by the way they play, but by the contributions they make to what we do as a league. And I just been overwhelmed by that in their context. What I would say is my closest relationships, honestly, are people that have made mistakes and face discipline in some fashion, and my hope in the discipline process is actually that we are not ending their career, we are actually extending their career. And the reason I say it that way is that for all of us when we make a mistake to step back be accountable, learn from it, usually will give us the ability to go on and be successful. And I am a huge believer in second chances, particularly when you earn it. And for someone who is willing to take that perspective, and there is such a long list of them that I talk to on a frequent basis, that we came from a tough spot, right? We have friends that we have all had disagreements about. But when you come from that difficult position and have a respect and understanding of one another, from that it actually makes that relationship deeper. So from my standpoint, that is one of the most rewarding things about this job. What's one piece of advice you would give to anyone who wants to improve as a leader? Have great mentors. Have those people that you can reach out to get a perspective on that you might not be thinking about. You and I have had lots of times together, including with a couple of our friends. And to be able to hear from your friends exactly how they see the world and to share it with you, you need that perspective. And so listening is a really undervalued quality when it comes to leadership. People like to think people come in and give you three choices and you select the one you go. You have to listen first. You have to understand. You have to do the analysis. You have to make sure you understand the consequences and the impact. And sometimes the timing of your decision is more important. A lot of people feel like to show leadership they have to make their decision quick. I argue you make a decision when you have as much data as you possibly can. We would all love to have all the data that shows a clear answer. But most of the time as you know as CEOs or leaders, you live in the gray matter. It's not always clear. It's not white or black. And you have to make judgments about how to balance information, how to weigh information, how to understand the consequences and make decisions from there. Last question. You talked about your wife a little bit. How do you balance it all with your partnership with your wife who I know is very special to you? How does that play into how you do your job? Well I'm really fortunate. I have a wife who is successful on her own right. She had a television career and was extraordinary, successful in that. So I think she understands the pressures of that. But she's also the most loyal person I've ever met in my life. And she understands what I'm going through. But while she's not afraid to tell me when I'm wrong, David, we need that by the way. But if anybody comes after her husband, she's the first to stand up and defend. And she actually did that once on Twitter by the way. And the bottom line on it is she has been an incredible partner. I love her dearly. We have the blessing of two children that I say to her all the time. I don't know why we're so fortunate to have these two young, wonderful women. We are blessed. And so having the family has allowed me to be able to do this. They understand how much I love it. They are great about the time I have to commit to it. And I spend every waking moment I can when I'm not working on this job with my family. Because that's my biggest priority. Speaking of blessings, Roger, it's a blessing to have you as a friend. And everybody that does feels the exact same way. You were one stand up guy. You've got so much stuff going on. You joked earlier that if I waited for a day that you didn't have something going on, we'd be doing this podcast. 20 years from now. But I appreciate you taking the time out. Because right now, Roger Goodell has some big issues on his day today. And he's still doing this podcast. So thank you very much, buddy. It's always a pleasure to be with you. I love you and I admire you and your leadership. You've been a big part of my success just by having your friendship and support and being able to reach out to you many times. So thank you for all your leadership and all you've done for so many of us and showing us the right way to do things. Well, it's always so inspiring to talk to Roger. He never and I mean never stops looking for ways to improve. Even though the NFL is wildly popular, he is just relentlessly out there advancing the vision, challenging the status quo, finding new opportunities and making sure the future is even more successful than the present. Now that is a lesson for any great leader. So this week, I want you to think about an area of your business or your life where you're doing pretty well. Now give yourself 30 minutes to think strategically about it. Consider your long-term vision and get brutally honest about where you can improve. Don't fall into the trap of accepting the status quo just because you're doing well. Make sure you're still actively setting yourself up for even more success down the road. So do you want to know how leaders lead? What we learned today is a great leader's fight complacency. Coming up next on How leaders lead, I'm talking with Mark Irwin, president and CEO of Bardstown Bourbon and the former head of our nation's elite fighting force, the Delta Force. You got to build those real relationships where people trust both ways, right? I've got to trust that individuals are doing what they say they're going to do, the integrity is there, and they got to trust the same with me. Even more important is that everyone has a common vision and an understanding of what you're trying to achieve and that they have individuals who are empowered and freedom to operate. And then that you actually are able to provide assets and resources. That's when teams really perform. So be sure to come back next week to hear our entire conversation. Thanks again for tuning in to another episode of How leaders lead where every Thursday you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world. I make it a point to give you something simple on each episode that you can apply to your business so that you will become the best leader you can be. [BLANK_AUDIO] [BLANK_AUDIO]